From owner-jdev@jabber.org Wed Jul 7 11:46:17 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA24193 for jdev-list; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 11:46:17 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from localhost (jeremie@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA24190 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 11:46:14 -0500 Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 11:46:14 -0500 (CDT) From: Jeremie X-Sender: jeremie@mondo.eppg.com To: jdev@jabber.org Subject: [JDEV] Gearing up again Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org Wow, it's sure been quiet lately :) That's partly my fault, the first part of the summer here has kept me on my toes with normal life "stuff", and at the same time I've been busy building a new dedicated server for Jabber.org and installing all the tools for it. Where are we at? Excellent question... Jabber is basically a functional and usable system now, and I have prototype transports for ICQ(working) and AIM(almost working). Consider this analogy: your building a car from scratch and now you have frame, engine, transmission, and tires on so you can drive it around, but it needs the body and interior yet. Within a week or two here I'll be moving jabber.org to the new dedicated server, finally, and be able to offer a whole host of new tools and more access for developers. I'll post more details as the time gets closer. So hold in there everyone, great things are on their way! Jer (time to go catch up on some old emails now) From owner-jdev@jabber.org Wed Jul 7 11:54:49 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA24261 for jdev-list; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 11:54:49 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from localhost (jeremie@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA24258 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 11:54:47 -0500 Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 11:54:47 -0500 (CDT) From: Jeremie X-Sender: jeremie@mondo.eppg.com To: jdev@jabber.org Subject: Re: [JDEV] Jabber 0.6 and the oh so quiet mailing list... In-Reply-To: <377422CA.FD1EC83F@vmware.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org > (ears picking up) CVS? i've also been a lurker for some time, but i > have been keeping up with the mailing list -- i simply didn't have the C > experience to dive in to the code. my summer job at vmware has me > coding kernel modules now (talk about baptism by fire :>) and so what's > the CVS server/login? i'd love to check out the current source tree, if > that's possible.. Awesome, I've got vmware running in the background right now, very amazing piece of software! You can snag a copy from CVS via: export CVSROOT=:pserver:anoncvs@jabber.org:/cvs cvs login Password: anoncvs cvs co jabber (the layout of the repository will be restructured on the new server, broken up a bit more into different modules) Let me know if you have any questions/problems, and feel free to jump in! Jer From owner-jdev@jabber.org Wed Jul 7 12:06:11 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA24464 for jdev-list; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 12:06:11 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from localhost (jeremie@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA24461 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 12:06:09 -0500 Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 12:06:09 -0500 (CDT) From: Jeremie X-Sender: jeremie@mondo.eppg.com To: jdev@jabber.org Subject: [JDEV] Threading and Jabber (fyi) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org The next major change in the current codebase is going to be the integration of threading. This will help a great deal in the performance, internal structure, and reduce the existing bugs of IO. Fortunately, the timing is perfect as Ralf has released unto the world an amazing little package called PTH: GNU Portable Threads. Check it out here: http://www.gnu.org/software/pth/pth.html and here is an extract from that page: "PTH is a very portable POSIX/ANSI-C based library for Unix platforms which provides non-preemptive scheduling for multiple threads of execution ("multithreading") inside server applications. All threads run in the same address space of the server application, but each thread has it's own individual program-counter, run-time stack, signal mask and errno variable." "The thread scheduling itself is done in a cooperative way, i.e. the threads are managed by a priority- and event-based non-preemptive scheduler. The intention is that this way one can achieve better portability and run-time performance than with preemptive scheduling. The event facility allows threads to wait until various types of events occur, including pending I/O on filedescriptors, asynchronous signals, elapsed timers, pending I/O on message ports, thread and process termination, and even customized callback functions." The structure of PTH compliments Jabber's IO demands perfectly(one thread per socket). I'm planning on having this working within Jabber yet this month. Jer From owner-jdev@jabber.org Wed Jul 7 12:08:36 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA24517 for jdev-list; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 12:08:36 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from mail.rdc1.sdca.home.com (imail@ha1.rdc1.sdca.home.com [24.0.3.66]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA24514 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 12:08:34 -0500 Received: from cx67088-a.dt1.sdca.home.com ([24.0.146.12]) by mail.rdc1.sdca.home.com (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with SMTP id <19990707160833.YXZX17489.mail.rdc1.sdca.home.com@cx67088-a.dt1.sdca.home.com> for ; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 09:08:33 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990707091400.00a1bd20@mail.dt1.sdca.home.com> X-Sender: robertl1@mail.dt1.sdca.home.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 1999 09:14:00 -0700 To: jdev@jabber.org From: Robert La Quey Subject: [JDEV] XML-RPC Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org Those of you interested in extensions of Jabber may find the XML-RPC work interesting as well. See: http://www.xml-rpc.com/ From owner-jdev@jabber.org Wed Jul 7 15:31:45 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA25925 for jdev-list; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 15:31:45 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from hermes.ezwv.com (hermes.ezwv.com [208.163.10.16]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA25922 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 15:31:42 -0500 Received: from muar241 (MUAR241.MARSHALL.EDU [206.212.37.241]) by hermes.ezwv.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id PAA31137 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 15:28:26 -0400 Message-ID: <003501bec8af$559f7c60$f125d4ce@marshall.edu> From: "Paul L. McNeely" To: References: Subject: Re: [JDEV] Jabber 0.6 and the oh so quiet mailing list... Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 15:31:38 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org I'm using win cvs nd I'm haveing some problems, I put in the root in the box for the root and set the authentication for passwd file on the cvs server. when I tell it to log in it only brings up that password box. also I'm under exactly what the pawword is, is it anoncvs or cvs co jabber either one of theses didn't work either. The way the email cam out it look liek the password was anoncvs. This is what I got. cvs login Password: anoncvs cvs co jabber -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Paul L. McNeely (drderail@i.am) ICQ# 1305664 Web Page: http://i.am/drderail Voicemail: 1-888-TELEBOT Extension: 37337245 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- West Virginia Christian Chat Mailing List Sign up at onelist.com or E-mail me. Marshall University Chat Mailing List http://muchat.listbot.com -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- ----- Original Message ----- From: Jeremie To: Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 1999 12:54 PM Subject: Re: [JDEV] Jabber 0.6 and the oh so quiet mailing list... > (ears picking up) CVS? i've also been a lurker for some time, but i > have been keeping up with the mailing list -- i simply didn't have the C > experience to dive in to the code. my summer job at vmware has me > coding kernel modules now (talk about baptism by fire :>) and so what's > the CVS server/login? i'd love to check out the current source tree, if > that's possible.. Awesome, I've got vmware running in the background right now, very amazing piece of software! You can snag a copy from CVS via: export CVSROOT=:pserver:anoncvs@jabber.org:/cvs cvs login Password: anoncvs cvs co jabber (the layout of the repository will be restructured on the new server, broken up a bit more into different modules) Let me know if you have any questions/problems, and feel free to jump in! Jer From owner-jdev@jabber.org Wed Jul 7 15:40:07 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA25995 for jdev-list; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 15:40:07 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from localhost (jeremie@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA25992 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 15:40:05 -0500 Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 15:40:05 -0500 (CDT) From: Jeremie X-Sender: jeremie@mondo.eppg.com To: jdev@jabber.org Subject: Re: [JDEV] Jabber 0.6 and the oh so quiet mailing list... In-Reply-To: <003501bec8af$559f7c60$f125d4ce@marshall.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org I haven't used wincvs so I'm not sure what values go where... but I can confirm that the password is "anoncvs". Let me know directly at jeremie@jabber.org if you have more problems and want to track it down further. Jer On Wed, 7 Jul 1999, Paul L. McNeely wrote: > I'm using win cvs nd I'm haveing some problems, I put in the root in the box > for the root and set the authentication for passwd file on the cvs server. > when I tell it to log in it only brings up that password box. also I'm > under exactly what the pawword is, is it anoncvs or cvs co jabber either one > of theses didn't work either. The way the email cam out it look liek the > password was anoncvs. > This is what I got. > > cvs login > Password: anoncvs > cvs co jabber > > > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > Paul L. McNeely (drderail@i.am) ICQ# 1305664 > Web Page: http://i.am/drderail > Voicemail: 1-888-TELEBOT Extension: 37337245 > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > West Virginia Christian Chat Mailing List > Sign up at onelist.com or E-mail me. > Marshall University Chat Mailing List > http://muchat.listbot.com > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Jeremie > To: > Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 1999 12:54 PM > Subject: Re: [JDEV] Jabber 0.6 and the oh so quiet mailing list... > > > > (ears picking up) CVS? i've also been a lurker for some time, but i > > have been keeping up with the mailing list -- i simply didn't have the C > > experience to dive in to the code. my summer job at vmware has me > > coding kernel modules now (talk about baptism by fire :>) and so what's > > the CVS server/login? i'd love to check out the current source tree, if > > that's possible.. > > Awesome, I've got vmware running in the background right now, very amazing > piece of software! > > You can snag a copy from CVS via: > > export CVSROOT=:pserver:anoncvs@jabber.org:/cvs > cvs login > Password: anoncvs > cvs co jabber > (the layout of the repository will be restructured on the new server, > broken up a bit more into different modules) > > Let me know if you have any questions/problems, and feel free to jump in! > > Jer > > From owner-jdev@jabber.org Wed Jul 7 22:16:57 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA28484 for jdev-list; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 22:16:57 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from ghostwheel.dhis.org (root@d133.narrowgate.net [209.12.210.133]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA28481 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 22:16:53 -0500 Received: from ghostwheel.dhis.org (really [127.0.0.1]) by ghostwheel.dhis.org via smail with esmtp (ident washort using rfc1413) id (Debian Smail3.2.0.102) for ; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 17:05:56 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: To: jdev@jabber.org Subject: [JDEV] weird new authentication/roster idea Date: Wed, 07 Jul 1999 17:05:50 -0500 From: Allen Short Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org as I look at the state of the authentication and roster pieces of Jabber, i notice that mod_mysql is in the pipeline. May I suggest a different way to do this stuff? Why not... LDAP? It is especially good for applications like this, it appears. It is explicitly designed to handle authentication and could certainly support rosters and other metadata, and hold pointers to stored messages. I haven't researched this fully, but it may also help with converting SMTP messages to Jabber messages. I might be way off base here, but a full-blown SQL database seems a bit heavy to me. :) A problem may be that the only free LDAP implementation I know of is not GPLed, but Artistic (see http://www.openldap.org) but I think other GPL projects are using it. (since the lib is only linked to in the client, it may not be a problem) Anyway, it sure sounds cool :) Anyone have ideas on this system? Allen -- hey, wow! Bricktext! From owner-jdev@jabber.org Thu Jul 8 10:18:11 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA31932 for jdev-list; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 10:18:11 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from localhost (jeremie@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA31929 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 10:18:09 -0500 Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 10:18:09 -0500 (CDT) From: Jeremie X-Sender: jeremie@mondo.eppg.com To: jdev@jabber.org Subject: Re: [JDEV] weird new authentication/roster idea In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org > as I look at the state of the authentication and roster pieces of Jabber, > i notice that mod_mysql is in the pipeline. May I suggest a different way > to do this stuff? Why not... LDAP? It is especially good for applications > like this, it appears. It is explicitly designed to handle authentication > and could certainly support rosters and other metadata, and hold pointers > to stored messages. I haven't researched this fully, but it may also help > with converting SMTP messages to Jabber messages. I might be way off base > here, but a full-blown SQL database seems a bit heavy to me. :) A problem > may be that the only free LDAP implementation I know of is not GPLed, but > Artistic (see http://www.openldap.org) but I think other GPL projects are > using it. (since the lib is only linked to in the client, it may not be a > problem) Anyway, it sure sounds cool :) Anyone have ideas on this system? Funny, I was just reading more on LDAP yesterday :) IMHO, there will definately be a mod_ldap at some point since your right, it's perfect for handling most of the needs of the server side, handling user meta-data and such. It will be much easier to write based off mod_mysql or any other module once they become more complete, which will happen over the next few months. > hey, wow! Bricktext! Very cool, especially if totally by accident! Jer From owner-jdev@jabber.org Thu Jul 8 17:19:18 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA01630 for jdev-list; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 17:19:18 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from zeus.kia.net ([205.252.89.69]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA01627 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 17:19:15 -0500 Received: from scylla (client-151-200-117-140.bellatlantic.net [151.200.117.140]) by zeus.kia.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) with SMTP id RAA24852 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 17:25:17 -0400 (EDT) From: "Patrick McCuller" To: Subject: RE: [JDEV] weird new authentication/roster idea Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 17:19:43 -0400 Message-ID: <012101bec987$98ad1340$8c75c897@scylla> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 In-Reply-To: Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org I've been working with LDAP for years. I'll be glad to help. I've been watching Jabber for a while, waiting mostly for a more complete implementation. As you point out, Jeremie, that's fast coming along, and I'm glad to see it. Especially good timing, too, as ICQ is toast (say hello to AIM++). Patrick > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-jdev@jabber.org [mailto:owner-jdev@jabber.org]On Behalf Of > Jeremie > Sent: Thursday, July 08, 1999 11:18 AM > To: jdev@jabber.org > Subject: Re: [JDEV] weird new authentication/roster idea > > > > > as I look at the state of the authentication and roster pieces > of Jabber, > > i notice that mod_mysql is in the pipeline. May I suggest a > different way > > to do this stuff? Why not... LDAP? It is especially good for > applications > > like this, it appears. It is explicitly designed to handle > authentication > > and could certainly support rosters and other metadata, and > hold pointers > > to stored messages. I haven't researched this fully, but it may > also help > > with converting SMTP messages to Jabber messages. I might be > way off base > > here, but a full-blown SQL database seems a bit heavy to me. :) > A problem > > may be that the only free LDAP implementation I know of is not > GPLed, but > > Artistic (see http://www.openldap.org) but I think other GPL > projects are > > using it. (since the lib is only linked to in the client, it > may not be a > > problem) Anyway, it sure sounds cool :) Anyone have ideas on > this system? > > Funny, I was just reading more on LDAP yesterday :) > > IMHO, there will definately be a mod_ldap at some point since your right, > it's perfect for handling most of the needs of the server side, handling > user meta-data and such. It will be much easier to write based off > mod_mysql or any other module once they become more complete, which will > happen over the next few months. > > > hey, wow! Bricktext! > > Very cool, especially if totally by accident! > > Jer > > From owner-jdev@jabber.org Thu Jul 8 19:07:48 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA02325 for jdev-list; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 19:07:48 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from exchange3.spu.edu (exchange3.spu.edu [192.190.33.112]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA02322 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 19:07:45 -0500 Received: by exchange3.spu.edu with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id <3M4H0GKR>; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 16:07:46 -0700 Message-ID: From: "Mansell, Brian" To: "'jdev@jabber.org'" Subject: RE: [JDEV] weird new authentication/roster idea Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 16:07:49 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org What does AIM++ have to offer so to speak that ICQ doesn't have? brian e. mansell CIS Help Desk - Seattle Pacific University E-Mail - bmansell@spu.edu HomePage - http://www.spu.edu/~bmansell/ Office |206| 281-2982 Personal Fax |603|452-7014 Seattle, Washington 98119 USA, Earth -----Original Message----- From: Patrick McCuller [mailto:patrick@kia.net] Sent: Thursday, July 08, 1999 2:20 PM To: jdev@jabber.org Subject: RE: [JDEV] weird new authentication/roster idea I've been working with LDAP for years. I'll be glad to help. I've been watching Jabber for a while, waiting mostly for a more complete implementation. As you point out, Jeremie, that's fast coming along, and I'm glad to see it. Especially good timing, too, as ICQ is toast (say hello to AIM++). Patrick > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-jdev@jabber.org [mailto:owner-jdev@jabber.org]On Behalf Of > Jeremie > Sent: Thursday, July 08, 1999 11:18 AM > To: jdev@jabber.org > Subject: Re: [JDEV] weird new authentication/roster idea > > > > > as I look at the state of the authentication and roster pieces > of Jabber, > > i notice that mod_mysql is in the pipeline. May I suggest a > different way > > to do this stuff? Why not... LDAP? It is especially good for > applications > > like this, it appears. It is explicitly designed to handle > authentication > > and could certainly support rosters and other metadata, and > hold pointers > > to stored messages. I haven't researched this fully, but it may > also help > > with converting SMTP messages to Jabber messages. I might be > way off base > > here, but a full-blown SQL database seems a bit heavy to me. :) > A problem > > may be that the only free LDAP implementation I know of is not > GPLed, but > > Artistic (see http://www.openldap.org) but I think other GPL > projects are > > using it. (since the lib is only linked to in the client, it > may not be a > > problem) Anyway, it sure sounds cool :) Anyone have ideas on > this system? > > Funny, I was just reading more on LDAP yesterday :) > > IMHO, there will definately be a mod_ldap at some point since your right, > it's perfect for handling most of the needs of the server side, handling > user meta-data and such. It will be much easier to write based off > mod_mysql or any other module once they become more complete, which will > happen over the next few months. > > > hey, wow! Bricktext! > > Very cool, especially if totally by accident! > > Jer > > From owner-jdev@jabber.org Thu Jul 8 19:35:32 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA02518 for jdev-list; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 19:35:32 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from wvc-omak.ctc.edu (wvc-omak.ctc.edu [134.39.155.250]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA02515 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 19:35:29 -0500 Received: from localhost (djarb@localhost) by wvc-omak.ctc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA18317 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 16:35:48 -0700 Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 16:35:48 -0700 (PDT) From: Daniel Arbuckle To: "'jdev@jabber.org'" Subject: RE: [JDEV] weird new authentication/roster idea In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org The company that owns them both likes it more. ;) Daniel On Thu, 8 Jul 1999, Mansell, Brian wrote: > What does AIM++ have to offer so to speak that ICQ doesn't have? > > brian e. mansell > CIS Help Desk - Seattle Pacific University > E-Mail - bmansell@spu.edu > HomePage - http://www.spu.edu/~bmansell/ > Office |206| 281-2982 Personal Fax |603|452-7014 > Seattle, Washington 98119 USA, Earth > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Patrick McCuller [mailto:patrick@kia.net] > Sent: Thursday, July 08, 1999 2:20 PM > To: jdev@jabber.org > Subject: RE: [JDEV] weird new authentication/roster idea > > > > I've been working with LDAP for years. I'll be glad to help. I've > been > watching Jabber for a while, waiting mostly for a more complete > implementation. As you point out, Jeremie, that's fast coming along, and I'm > glad to see it. Especially good timing, too, as ICQ is toast (say hello to > AIM++). > > > Patrick > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-jdev@jabber.org [mailto:owner-jdev@jabber.org]On Behalf Of > > Jeremie > > Sent: Thursday, July 08, 1999 11:18 AM > > To: jdev@jabber.org > > Subject: Re: [JDEV] weird new authentication/roster idea > > > > > > > > > as I look at the state of the authentication and roster pieces > > of Jabber, > > > i notice that mod_mysql is in the pipeline. May I suggest a > > different way > > > to do this stuff? Why not... LDAP? It is especially good for > > applications > > > like this, it appears. It is explicitly designed to handle > > authentication > > > and could certainly support rosters and other metadata, and > > hold pointers > > > to stored messages. I haven't researched this fully, but it may > > also help > > > with converting SMTP messages to Jabber messages. I might be > > way off base > > > here, but a full-blown SQL database seems a bit heavy to me. :) > > A problem > > > may be that the only free LDAP implementation I know of is not > > GPLed, but > > > Artistic (see http://www.openldap.org) but I think other GPL > > projects are > > > using it. (since the lib is only linked to in the client, it > > may not be a > > > problem) Anyway, it sure sounds cool :) Anyone have ideas on > > this system? > > > > Funny, I was just reading more on LDAP yesterday :) > > > > IMHO, there will definately be a mod_ldap at some point since your right, > > it's perfect for handling most of the needs of the server side, handling > > user meta-data and such. It will be much easier to write based off > > mod_mysql or any other module once they become more complete, which will > > happen over the next few months. > > > > > hey, wow! Bricktext! > > > > Very cool, especially if totally by accident! > > > > Jer > > > > > From owner-jdev@jabber.org Thu Jul 8 22:29:17 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA03295 for jdev-list; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 22:29:17 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from smtp3.hawaii.rr.com (smtp3.hawaii.rr.com [204.210.97.13]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA03292 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 22:29:14 -0500 Received: from sculdheizo - 204.210.123.196 by smtp3.hawaii.rr.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1774.114.11); Thu, 8 Jul 1999 16:17:55 -1000 Message-ID: <000901bec9b3$25871010$c47bd2cc@hawaii.rr.com> From: "Donovan Schulteis" To: References: Subject: Re: [JDEV] weird new authentication/roster idea Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 16:31:27 -1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org Being AOL bought ICQ (well, its company - can't remember the name), I guess we can expect AIM to integrate all of ICQ into it (or visa-versa). > What does AIM++ have to offer so to speak that ICQ doesn't have? From owner-jdev@jabber.org Fri Jul 9 13:03:50 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA07405 for jdev-list; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 13:03:50 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from mc-qout4.whowhere.com (mc-qout4.whowhere.com [209.185.123.18]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA07400 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 13:03:47 -0500 Received: from Unknown/Local ([?.?.?.?]) by my-deja.com; Fri Jul 9 10:03:07 1999 To: "Jeremie" , jdev@jabber.org Date: Fri, 09 Jul 1999 10:03:07 -0700 From: "Thomas D. Charron" Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sent-Mail: off X-Mailer: MailCity Service Subject: [JDEV] Re: (No Subject) X-Sender-Ip: 206.50.182.5 Organization: My Deja Email (http://www.my-deja.com:80) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org On Fri, 9 Jul 1999 12:20:06 Jeremie wrote: >I don't think I can do this with majordomo... not sure. Give me a week or >two and I'll have the list moved to mailman, which is immensly more >configurable :) Traffics never been really that bad.. I'll just use this untill jabber.org is ready.. >Ahhh... I think I understand what you're talking about now, user >meta-data, like names, email, phone, etc... I have a proposal out there >at: http://jabber.org/developers/archive/9904/msg00022.html >There have been a few minor changes and it's mostly implemented in the >code already, it actually works VERY nicely, check it out :) Ehh.. KINDA what I meant.. What I mean is a way for the transport to prompt and say 'This is what I need'. Hence, the forms interface. Basically, what would like to see is a way for anything to 'prompt' for data, that it can then either be stored, or passed along.. This could serve 2 purposes: 1) To prompt for data that the 'thing' (transport, client, etc..etc..) needs, Aka, IRC UserName.. AOL user name, etc..etc.. 2) To interactively be able to pass this data back and forth. Perfect example would be to have IRC <=> Jabber bridge. Becouse of the nature of IRC, you would have to have some way of sending 'commands' to the transport to do things like joining channels. If we had the ability to have HTML forms, a form could be sent to the client, which could then prompt the form, to do things. HTML forms allow different methods for sending the form. We could use one to say 'store this data', and another to simply pass it along as a form reply. This applies to more then just IRC. AOL chat channels, which I believe can be done via IM now, would be another example. As Jabber implies, we need a way to expand without breaking older implentations, and I'm not sure if we can add this functionality later once people have build up ways to do this differently.. This would ALSO allow for things such as 'New Accounts' that could be created on the fly by transports, etc.. I'm definatly NOT saying that HTML forms is 100% THE way to GO, but I think we need to establish how this data should be moved around.. I personally prefer the storage of persistent data on the server, which we already have, but non persistant data will still eventually need to be passed around, aka, current IRC Mode, Current IRC Nick, Change to this IRC channel, etc..etc.. HTML forms just seems to me to be a standards based way of presenting and transmitting the request inside of our XML packets.. Please, flame away at you leasure, people.. ;-P --- Thomas Charron --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- Share what you know. Learn what you don't. From owner-jdev@jabber.org Fri Jul 9 14:54:08 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA08345 for jdev-list; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 14:54:08 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from mc-qout4.whowhere.com (mc-qout4.whowhere.com [209.185.123.18]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA08341 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 14:53:52 -0500 Received: from Unknown/Local ([?.?.?.?]) by my-deja.com; Fri Jul 9 11:53:05 1999 To: jdev@jabber.org, "Jer" Date: Fri, 09 Jul 1999 11:53:05 -0700 From: "Thomas D. Charron" Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sent-Mail: on X-Mailer: MailCity Service Subject: [JDEV] Anyone bored? X-Sender-Ip: 206.50.182.5 Attachments: JabberToIrc.pl Organization: My Deja Email (http://www.my-deja.com:80) Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=_-=_-GEDFNGHGJKOPAAAA" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. You need a MIME compliant mail reader to completely decode it. --=_-=_-GEDFNGHGJKOPAAAA Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Length: 477 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Anyone bored? ;-P This little diddy will be checked in soon, but it's just a VERY simplistic example of building an IRC <=> Jabber bridge in perl. All THIS really does is connect to an IRC server, the local Jabber server, and say on #JabTest what is 'say'ed to them via Jabber.. Lemme alone, I was bored and reading up on the Net::IRC module.. ;-P --- Thomas Charron --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- Share what you know. Learn what you don't. --=_-=_-GEDFNGHGJKOPAAAA Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="JabberToIrc.pl" Content-Length: 1776 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit #!/usr/local/bin/perl @INC = (`pwd`,@INC); use Net::Jabber; use Net::IRC; my $irc = new Net::IRC; print "Creating connection to IRC server...\n"; my $conn = $irc->newconn(Server => ($ARGV[0] || 'irc-w.primenet.com'), Port => 6667, Nick => 'Boolahman', Ircname => 'This bot brought to you by Net::IRC.', Username => 'quetzal') or die "irctest: Can't connect to IRC server.\n"; print "Installing handler routines for IRC...\n"; $conn->add_global_handler([ 251,252,253,254,302,255 ], \&on_init); $conn->add_global_handler('disconnect', \&on_disconnect); $conn->add_global_handler(376, \&on_connect); print "Installing Handler routines for Jabber...\n"; SetCallbacks("message" => \&JabberMessage); print "Creating connection to Jabber server...\n"; Connect("localhost") || die("Connecting Jabber: $!"); SendSimple qw(login user u pass p nick Test'User); while(1) { Process(1) || die("Processing: $!"); $irc->do_one_loop(); } sub JabberMessage { my %Message = Simplify(@_); irc->privmsg("#JabTest", $Message{"say"}); } sub on_connect { my $self = shift; print "Joining #JabTest...\n"; $self->join("#JabTest"); $self->topic("#JabTest"); } # Handles some messages you get when you connect sub on_init { my ($self, $event) = @_; my (@args) = ($event->args); shift (@args); print "*** @args\n"; } # Reconnect to the server when we die. sub on_disconnect { my ($self, $event) = @_; print "Disconnected from ", $event->from(), " (", ($event->args())[0], "). Attempting to reconnect...\n"; $self->connect(); } --=_-=_-GEDFNGHGJKOPAAAA-- From owner-jdev@jabber.org Fri Jul 9 15:17:15 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA08689 for jdev-list; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 15:17:15 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from localhost (jeremie@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA08686 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 15:17:13 -0500 Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 15:17:12 -0500 (CDT) From: Jeremie X-Sender: jeremie@mondo.eppg.com To: jdev@jabber.org Subject: Re: [JDEV] Re: (No Subject) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org > Ehh.. KINDA what I meant.. What I mean is a way for the transport to > prompt and say 'This is what I need'. Hence, the forms interface. > [zip-it] Ahh... yes, I also first looked at solving it with HTML forms :) To solve the last piece with the info/query proposal, consider this, queries can be sent directly to the client. That in itself can be very powerful, so you can query a running connected client for anything, the transport could send a query for a nickname or anything else, or a client could query another client, or a special client might be a temp gauge that can be queried for the live temp. The biggest part of the info/query proposal that has to be worked out yet is the pre-defined queries for servers and transports that they need to respond to, like help-url, new registrations, user searching, user info lookup, etc... We can start on those after 0.7. Jer From owner-jdev@jabber.org Fri Jul 9 17:11:44 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA09636 for jdev-list; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 17:11:44 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from trep.dhs.org (trep@trep.ctsi.net [209.96.140.131]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA09633 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 17:11:40 -0500 Received: from localhost (trep@localhost) by trep.dhs.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA07180 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 17:15:10 -0400 Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 17:15:09 -0400 (EDT) From: Jeff McBride X-Sender: trep@trep.home.net To: jdev@jabber.org Subject: [JDEV] AIM transport Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org I would like to do some work on the AIM transport, so I have been looking through the code to try and figure it all out. I don't have much "real development" experience. Perl I can handle ok, but my C skills could use some improvement. So I want to use this as a chance to get better, and to help out a great project. So my main question is, is there anyone willing to answer any (probably stupid) questions that I come up with about the jabber architecture? I don't want to bother the list with what most would probably consider trivial things. Also, Thomas Charron, do you think you could send me that perl transport? I bet that would help me a lot, to see it in simplistic form and in perl:). It looks like you are using the binary oscar version of AIM at the moment? I would prefer to do it with the TOC version like Tik does. If that's ok of course. Thanks, Jeff From owner-jdev@jabber.org Fri Jul 9 18:32:49 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA10286 for jdev-list; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 18:32:49 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from wvc-omak.ctc.edu (wvc-omak.ctc.edu [134.39.155.250]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA10281 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 18:32:45 -0500 Received: from localhost (djarb@localhost) by wvc-omak.ctc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA20946 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 15:33:14 -0700 Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 15:33:14 -0700 (PDT) From: Daniel Arbuckle To: jdev@jabber.org Subject: Re: [JDEV] AIM transport In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org I can probably answer most of your questions. Daniel On Fri, 9 Jul 1999, Jeff McBride wrote: > I would like to do some work on the AIM transport, so I have been looking > through the code to try and figure it all out. I don't have much "real > development" experience. Perl I can handle ok, but my C skills could use > some improvement. So I want to use this as a chance to get better, and to > help out a great project. > > So my main question is, is there anyone willing to answer any (probably > stupid) questions that I come up with about the jabber architecture? I > don't want to bother the list with what most would probably consider > trivial things. > > Also, Thomas Charron, do you think you could send me that perl transport? > I bet that would help me a lot, to see it in simplistic form and in > perl:). > > It looks like you are using the binary oscar version of AIM at the moment? > I would prefer to do it with the TOC version like Tik does. If that's ok > of course. > > Thanks, > > Jeff > > > > From owner-jdev@jabber.org Fri Jul 9 18:35:57 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA10308 for jdev-list; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 18:35:57 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from mc-qout4.whowhere.com (mc-qout4.whowhere.com [209.185.123.18]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA10305 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 18:35:54 -0500 Received: from Unknown/Local ([?.?.?.?]) by my-deja.com; Fri Jul 9 15:35:13 1999 To: jdev@jabber.org Date: Fri, 09 Jul 1999 15:35:13 -0700 From: "Thomas D. Charron" Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sent-Mail: off X-Mailer: MailCity Service Subject: Re: [JDEV] AIM transport X-Sender-Ip: 205.161.31.49 Organization: My Deja Email (http://www.my-deja.com:80) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org --- Thomas Charron >So my main question is, is there anyone willing to answer any (probably >stupid) questions that I come up with about the jabber architecture? I >don't want to bother the list with what most would probably consider >trivial things. Fire away.. ;-P I can promise not to corrupt your mind, though.. >Also, Thomas Charron, do you think you could send me that perl transport? >I bet that would help me a lot, to see it in simplistic form and in >perl:). Sure, but it prob won't be till sunday. That's when I should have my laptop back, and all my Visual Studio disks.. --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- Share what you know. Learn what you don't. From owner-jdev@jabber.org Fri Jul 9 18:44:41 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA10355 for jdev-list; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 18:44:41 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from mc-qout4.whowhere.com (mc-qout4.whowhere.com [209.185.123.18]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA10350 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 18:44:38 -0500 Received: from Unknown/Local ([?.?.?.?]) by my-deja.com; Fri Jul 9 15:43:58 1999 To: jdev@jabber.org Date: Fri, 09 Jul 1999 15:43:58 -0700 From: "Thomas D. Charron" Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sent-Mail: off X-Mailer: MailCity Service Subject: [JDEV] Zabber change request.. X-Sender-Ip: 205.161.31.49 Organization: My Deja Email (http://www.my-deja.com:80) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org Heya Waster, I've got a small request for zabber that I just noticed while spewing forth C for a Jabber <=> IRC multiclient.. Zabber uses threads WONDERFULLY, but when I send it this: 1 2 3 4 5 in 5 DIFFERENT messages, in that order, the first message comes thru with 1. When I client the 'next' button, 5 is there, then 4, 3, and 2. Can you have it reverse that behavior? It looks like the newest message get's stacked at the beginning of some sort of array (Is my knowledge of TCL/TK showing thru yet?) instead of at the end of it.. I was using the thread ID to make things come thru as a 'channel'.. Speaking of clients, what's up with cabbar? Is it usable yet? I haven't attempted a compile of it quite yet.. --- Thomas Charron --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- Share what you know. Learn what you don't. From owner-jdev@jabber.org Fri Jul 9 18:55:25 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA10513 for jdev-list; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 18:55:25 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from smtp.doruk.net.tr (smtp.doruk.net.tr [212.58.4.4]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA10510 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 18:55:21 -0500 Received: from doruk.net.tr (zeus.doruk.net.tr [212.58.4.10]) by smtp.doruk.net.tr (8.8.5/SCO5) with SMTP id BAA24697 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 1999 01:58:12 +0200 (TSI) Received: from cn-async-host-0031.comnet.com.tr by doruk.net.tr (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id BAA05734; Sat, 10 Jul 1999 01:48:29 +0300 Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 01:57:52 +0300 (EEST) From: "Kemal 'disq' Hadimli" X-Sender: disq@heart_of_gold.localdomain To: jdev@jabber.org Subject: Re: [JDEV] Zabber change request.. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org On Fri, 9 Jul 1999, Thomas D. Charron wrote: > Speaking of clients, what's up with cabbar? Is it usable yet? I haven't attempted a compile of it quite yet.. well, cabbar is pretty useable, but also pretty untested. ;) and there are some features which are not complete, and some things which will change completely. (see TODO) bye, disqk "One World, One Web, One Program" - Microsoft Promotional Ad "Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Fuhrer" - Adolf Hitler From owner-jdev@jabber.org Fri Jul 9 19:09:17 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA10758 for jdev-list; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 19:09:17 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from zeus.kia.net ([205.252.89.69]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA10754 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 19:09:15 -0500 Received: from scylla (client-151-200-117-140.bellatlantic.net [151.200.117.140]) by zeus.kia.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) with SMTP id TAA01594 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 19:15:23 -0400 (EDT) From: "Patrick McCuller" To: Subject: RE: [JDEV] weird new authentication/roster idea Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 19:09:38 -0400 Message-ID: <011701beca60$1e7afb80$8c75c897@scylla> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 In-Reply-To: <000901bec9b3$25871010$c47bd2cc@hawaii.rr.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org The scoop is, AIM is replacing ICQ, not the other way around. They'll be nice enough about it, starting out by bridging the two systems and then just distributing the AIM installer, not the ICQ installer. Mind you, this is hearsay, I don't work for AOL. But one way or another, none of the currently available instant messaging clients is really good, and not the great goal, interoperable. A year ago, I counted seven distinct instant messaging networks. How many are there today? Patrick > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-jdev@jabber.org [mailto:owner-jdev@jabber.org]On Behalf Of > Donovan Schulteis > Sent: Thursday, July 08, 1999 10:31 PM > To: jdev@jabber.org > Subject: Re: [JDEV] weird new authentication/roster idea > > > Being AOL bought ICQ (well, its company - can't remember the > name), I guess > we can expect AIM to integrate all of ICQ into it (or visa-versa). > > > What does AIM++ have to offer so to speak that ICQ doesn't have? > > > From owner-jdev@jabber.org Fri Jul 9 20:08:24 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA11294 for jdev-list; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 20:08:24 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from smtp.doruk.net.tr (smtp.doruk.net.tr [212.58.4.4]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA11291 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 20:08:20 -0500 Received: from doruk.net.tr (zeus.doruk.net.tr [212.58.4.10]) by smtp.doruk.net.tr (8.8.5/SCO5) with SMTP id DAA04734 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 1999 03:11:24 +0200 (TSI) Received: from KEREM by doruk.net.tr (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id DAA05762; Sat, 10 Jul 1999 03:02:00 +0300 Message-ID: <37868EFE.90F6DA9C@iname.com> Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 03:08:30 +0300 From: Waster_ X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: jdev@jabber.org Subject: Re: [JDEV] Zabber change request.. X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org Ok, fixed that and put new version in CVS, thanks. Thomas D. Charron wrote: > > Heya Waster, I've got a small request for zabber that I just noticed while spewing forth C for a Jabber <=> IRC multiclient.. Zabber uses threads WONDERFULLY, but when I send it this: > > 1 > 2 > 3 > 4 > 5 > > in 5 DIFFERENT messages, in that order, the first message comes thru with 1. When I client the 'next' button, 5 is there, then 4, 3, and 2. Can you have it reverse that behavior? It looks like the newest message get's stacked at the beginning of some sort of array (Is my knowledge of TCL/TK showing thru yet?) instead of at the end of it.. > > I was using the thread ID to make things come thru as a 'channel'.. > > Speaking of clients, what's up with cabbar? Is it usable yet? I haven't attempted a compile of it quite yet.. > > --- > Thomas Charron > > --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- > Share what you know. Learn what you don't. From owner-jdev@jabber.org Fri Jul 9 22:38:06 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA12192 for jdev-list; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 22:38:06 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from hermes.ezwv.com (hermes.ezwv.com [208.163.10.16]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA12189 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 22:38:03 -0500 Received: from muar241 (ip158067.dlup.hunt.ezwv.com [208.168.158.67]) by hermes.ezwv.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id WAA07236 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 22:34:32 -0400 Message-ID: <000d01beca7d$38463300$439ea8d0@marshall.edu> From: "Paul L. McNeely" To: "Jabber" Subject: [JDEV] WinCVS Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 22:37:56 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org If Anyone has been able to access the CVS server from WinCVS please let me know I need yo know what I'm doing wrong. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Paul L. McNeely (drderail@i.am) ICQ# 1305664 Web Page: http://i.am/drderail Voicemail: 1-888-TELEBOT Extension: 37337245 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- West Virginia Christian Chat Mailing List Sign up at onelist.com or E-mail me. Marshall University Chat Mailing List http://muchat.listbot.com -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- From owner-jdev@jabber.org Fri Jul 9 23:26:07 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA12484 for jdev-list; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 23:26:07 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from katie.tranzoa.com (sea-ts6-p26.wolfenet.com [205.163.75.156]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA12481 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 23:26:04 -0500 Received: from tara.tranzoa.com (IDENT:postfix@tara.tranzoa.com [10.1.1.66]) by katie.tranzoa.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA13342 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 20:25:55 -0700 Received: by tara.tranzoa.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 3AEA6DEA95; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 20:25:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tara.tranzoa.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 127E78E94 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 20:25:53 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 20:25:53 -0700 (PDT) From: Scott Robinson To: jdev@jabber.org Subject: RE: [JDEV] weird new authentication/roster idea In-Reply-To: <011701beca60$1e7afb80$8c75c897@scylla> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org I might ask, if ICQ is going to die, why continue expanding ICQ? icqmail.com? Promised new versions? If anything, I would think they would combine protocols and create a better, compatible, system for both. Scott. On Fri, 9 Jul 1999, Patrick McCuller wrote: > > The scoop is, AIM is replacing ICQ, not the other way around. They'll be > nice enough about it, starting out by bridging the two systems and then just > distributing the AIM installer, not the ICQ installer. Mind you, this is > hearsay, I don't work for AOL. But one way or another, none of the currently > available instant messaging clients is really good, and not the great goal, > interoperable. > > A year ago, I counted seven distinct instant messaging networks. How many > are there today? > > > Patrick > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-jdev@jabber.org [mailto:owner-jdev@jabber.org]On Behalf Of > > Donovan Schulteis > > Sent: Thursday, July 08, 1999 10:31 PM > > To: jdev@jabber.org > > Subject: Re: [JDEV] weird new authentication/roster idea > > > > > > Being AOL bought ICQ (well, its company - can't remember the > > name), I guess > > we can expect AIM to integrate all of ICQ into it (or visa-versa). > > > > > What does AIM++ have to offer so to speak that ICQ doesn't have? > > > > > > > > From owner-jdev@jabber.org Sat Jul 10 11:31:27 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA15472 for jdev-list; Sat, 10 Jul 1999 11:31:27 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from mc-qout4.whowhere.com (mc-qout4.whowhere.com [209.185.123.18]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA15469 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 1999 11:31:24 -0500 Received: from Unknown/Local ([?.?.?.?]) by my-deja.com; Sat Jul 10 08:31:12 1999 To: jdev@jabber.org Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 08:31:12 -0700 From: "Thomas D. Charron" Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sent-Mail: off X-Mailer: MailCity Service Subject: [JDEV] AOL+, ISP usage, etc.. X-Sender-Ip: 205.161.31.49 Organization: My Deja Email (http://www.my-deja.com:80) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org I am going to tryt to find out what the insider scoop is.. I have someone that works there that may be able to fill me in a bit.. (It helps that I work for the company that takes care of AOL's electronic billing transactions.. ;-P) On side note, I have some interesting news.. I friend of mine was talking to me last night, and asked if I'd ever heard of this 'Jabber' program that is under development... I started to laugh histerically, and asked him where he'd seen it. He happened accross it on a web search the other day. Anyway, he is REALLY looking forward to looking at it, and here's the best part.. He wants to roll it out for usage by the ISP he works for, PSINet, once everything is up to snuff for a 1.0 release.. He's most likely going to join the list eventually, as he's really exited about the whole idea.. Oh, and IRC via Jabber is just to friggen cool.. Jer, do I have proper CVS permisions to checkin a new subdir anyplace? --- Thomas Charron On Fri, 9 Jul 1999 19:09:38 Patrick McCuller wrote: > > The scoop is, AIM is replacing ICQ, not the other way around. They'll be >nice enough about it, starting out by bridging the two systems and then just >distributing the AIM installer, not the ICQ installer. Mind you, this is >hearsay, I don't work for AOL. But one way or another, none of the currently >available instant messaging clients is really good, and not the great goal, >interoperable. > > A year ago, I counted seven distinct instant messaging networks. How many >are there today? > > >Patrick > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-jdev@jabber.org [mailto:owner-jdev@jabber.org]On Behalf Of >> Donovan Schulteis >> Sent: Thursday, July 08, 1999 10:31 PM >> To: jdev@jabber.org >> Subject: Re: [JDEV] weird new authentication/roster idea >> >> >> Being AOL bought ICQ (well, its company - can't remember the >> name), I guess >> we can expect AIM to integrate all of ICQ into it (or visa-versa). >> >> > What does AIM++ have to offer so to speak that ICQ doesn't have? >> >> >> > > --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- Share what you know. Learn what you don't. From owner-jdev@jabber.org Sat Jul 10 11:33:50 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA15491 for jdev-list; Sat, 10 Jul 1999 11:33:50 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from mc-qout4.whowhere.com (mc-qout4.whowhere.com [209.185.123.18]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA15488 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 1999 11:33:48 -0500 Received: from Unknown/Local ([?.?.?.?]) by my-deja.com; Sat Jul 10 08:33:14 1999 To: jdev@jabber.org Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 08:33:14 -0700 From: "Thomas D. Charron" Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sent-Mail: off X-Mailer: MailCity Service Subject: Re: [JDEV] WinCVS X-Sender-Ip: 205.161.31.49 Organization: My Deja Email (http://www.my-deja.com:80) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org I will test it out tonight.. If you have a JVM installed, I've used the Java CVS client with much success under Win32.. --- Thomas Charron On Fri, 9 Jul 1999 22:37:56 Paul L. McNeely wrote: >If Anyone has been able to access the CVS server from WinCVS please let me >know I need yo know what I'm doing wrong. >-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- >Paul L. McNeely (drderail@i.am) ICQ# 1305664 >Web Page: http://i.am/drderail >Voicemail: 1-888-TELEBOT Extension: 37337245 >-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > West Virginia Christian Chat Mailing List > Sign up at onelist.com or E-mail me. > Marshall University Chat Mailing List > http://muchat.listbot.com >-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > > > --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- Share what you know. Learn what you don't. From owner-jdev@jabber.org Sat Jul 10 15:30:26 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA16566 for jdev-list; Sat, 10 Jul 1999 15:30:26 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from mail.wireweb.net (mail.wireweb.net [216.3.229.9]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA16563 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 1999 15:30:23 -0500 Received: by mail.wireweb.net from localhost (router,SLMail V3.2); Sat, 10 Jul 1999 14:24:28 -0500 Received: by mail.wireweb.net from box5.net (216.3.228.114::mail daemon; unverified,SLMail V3.2); Sat, 10 Jul 1999 14:24:26 -0500 Message-ID: <3787A095.6ECBFABA@box5.net> Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 14:35:49 -0500 From: Temas X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.5-15 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: jdev@jabber.org Subject: Re: [JDEV] AOL+, ISP usage, etc.. References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SLUIDL: 6100285D-361311D3-BB330040-33537EE5 Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org Hey all, everyone so often I pop in here when I hear something about AOL. I work on the libfaim AIM library, and have heard the same rumors about AOL slowly removing ICQ. Anyway, to the person that is going to work on the transport, I'd be glad to help if you need it. I originally was going to write a transport using libfaim, but discovered I would have to rewrite how it handles the array of connections. I may do this when I have more time, but work doesn't let up =) Either way I know a lot about the actual OSCAR protocol and a lot about the TOC protocol (bad, evil, no ;-) ). --Thomas Muldowney "Thomas D. Charron" wrote: > > I am going to tryt to find out what the insider scoop is.. I have someone that works there that may be able to fill me in a bit.. > > (It helps that I work for the company that takes care of AOL's electronic billing transactions.. ;-P) > > On side note, I have some interesting news.. I friend of mine was talking to me last night, and asked if I'd ever heard of this 'Jabber' program that is under development... I started to laugh histerically, and asked him where he'd seen it. He happened accross it on a web search the other day. Anyway, he is REALLY looking forward to looking at it, and here's the best part.. He wants to roll it out for usage by the ISP he works for, PSINet, once everything is up to snuff for a 1.0 release.. He's most likely going to join the list eventually, as he's really exited about the whole idea.. > > Oh, and IRC via Jabber is just to friggen cool.. Jer, do I have proper CVS permisions to checkin a new subdir anyplace? > --- > Thomas Charron > > > --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- > Share what you know. Learn what you don't. From owner-jdev@jabber.org Sat Jul 10 16:15:35 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA16878 for jdev-list; Sat, 10 Jul 1999 16:15:35 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from trep.dhs.org (trep@trep.ctsi.net [209.96.140.131]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA16873 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 1999 16:15:31 -0500 Received: from localhost (trep@localhost) by trep.dhs.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA07935 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 1999 16:18:54 -0400 Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 16:18:53 -0400 (EDT) From: Jeff McBride X-Sender: trep@trep.home.net To: jdev@jabber.org Subject: Re: [JDEV] AOL+, ISP usage, etc.. In-Reply-To: <3787A095.6ECBFABA@box5.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org I am just starting to work on the transport. I read in the archive someone else who didn't like TOC much:). Now you. Why is this? I was planning on using TOC rather than OSCAR. But if there is really some good reason why OSCAR is better, maybe I should use that? Thanks, Jeff On Sat, 10 Jul 1999, Temas wrote: > Hey all, everyone so often I pop in here when I hear something about > AOL. I work on the libfaim AIM library, and have heard the same rumors > about AOL slowly removing ICQ. Anyway, to the person that is going to > work on the transport, I'd be glad to help if you need it. I originally > was going to write a transport using libfaim, but discovered I would > have to rewrite how it handles the array of connections. I may do this > when I have more time, but work doesn't let up =) Either way I know a > lot about the actual OSCAR protocol and a lot about the TOC protocol > (bad, evil, no ;-) ). > > --Thomas Muldowney > > "Thomas D. Charron" wrote: > > > > I am going to tryt to find out what the insider scoop is.. I have someone that works there that may be able to fill me in a bit.. > > > > (It helps that I work for the company that takes care of AOL's electronic billing transactions.. ;-P) > > > > On side note, I have some interesting news.. I friend of mine was talking to me last night, and asked if I'd ever heard of this 'Jabber' program that is under development... I started to laugh histerically, and asked him where he'd seen it. He happened accross it on a web search the other day. Anyway, he is REALLY looking forward to looking at it, and here's the best part.. He wants to roll it out for usage by the ISP he works for, PSINet, once everything is up to snuff for a 1.0 release.. He's most likely going to join the list eventually, as he's really exited about the whole idea.. > > > > Oh, and IRC via Jabber is just to friggen cool.. Jer, do I have proper CVS permisions to checkin a new subdir anyplace? > > --- > > Thomas Charron > > > > > > --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- > > Share what you know. Learn what you don't. > From owner-jdev@jabber.org Sat Jul 10 18:11:40 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA17467 for jdev-list; Sat, 10 Jul 1999 18:11:40 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from mail.wireweb.net (mail.wireweb.net [216.3.229.9]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA17464 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 1999 18:11:37 -0500 Received: by mail.wireweb.net from localhost (router,SLMail V3.2); Sat, 10 Jul 1999 17:05:41 -0500 Received: by mail.wireweb.net from box5.net (216.3.228.114::mail daemon; unverified,SLMail V3.2); Sat, 10 Jul 1999 17:05:40 -0500 Message-ID: <3787C663.174EDF5@box5.net> Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 17:17:07 -0500 From: Temas X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.5-15 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: jdev@jabber.org Subject: Re: [JDEV] AOL+, ISP usage, etc.. References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SLUIDL: 61002ABB-361311D3-BB330040-33537EE5 Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org Well if we look at the two protocols I can give a few really good reasons. One even though TOC says it is super simple this is not true. The first thing it touts as nice is it's text based protocol. Personally I hate messing with strings in C, not that it's hard but it is cumbersome sometimes. Another interesting thing about TOC is you still have to track the sequence number like the OSCAR protocol. That is one of the most tedious parts of it. Those are just some of the things that TOC could have made easier but did not. The items I like about OSCAR are that I think the chatnav support is better, I think the file transport support is better, and I think it is more reliable because it does not disconnect you on just about any error that it gets, and it's a binary protocol. TOC has two nice points,it is fairly open source, and the stock quotes on the buddy list. That is a definite draw. Working with OSCAR we are still trying to get chatnav and file transfers to work fully with libfaim. Really either protocol would work although I feel that we're going to find that the OSCAR protocol is going to accelerate more quickly than the TOC protocol as AOL adds more features such as the newest file transfers. Like I said again, I finally have little amounts of free time at night and would be more than happy to work on the transport with you, just let me know. --Thomas Muldowney Jeff McBride wrote: > > I am just starting to work on the transport. I read in the archive someone > else who didn't like TOC much:). Now you. Why is this? I was planning on > using TOC rather than OSCAR. But if there is really some good reason why > OSCAR is better, maybe I should use that? > > Thanks, > Jeff > > On Sat, 10 Jul 1999, Temas wrote: > > > Hey all, everyone so often I pop in here when I hear something about > > AOL. I work on the libfaim AIM library, and have heard the same rumors > > about AOL slowly removing ICQ. Anyway, to the person that is going to > > work on the transport, I'd be glad to help if you need it. I originally > > was going to write a transport using libfaim, but discovered I would > > have to rewrite how it handles the array of connections. I may do this > > when I have more time, but work doesn't let up =) Either way I know a > > lot about the actual OSCAR protocol and a lot about the TOC protocol > > (bad, evil, no ;-) ). > > > > --Thomas Muldowney From owner-jdev@jabber.org Mon Jul 12 09:30:59 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA27456 for jdev-list; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 09:30:59 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from mc-qout4.whowhere.com (mc-qout4.whowhere.com [209.185.123.18]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA27453 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 09:30:57 -0500 Received: from Unknown/Local ([?.?.?.?]) by my-deja.com; Mon Jul 12 06:30:38 1999 To: jdev@jabber.org Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 06:30:38 -0700 From: "Thomas D. Charron" Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sent-Mail: off X-Mailer: MailCity Service Subject: [JDEV] Silly Question? X-Sender-Ip: 206.50.182.6 Organization: My Deja Email (http://www.my-deja.com:80) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org Silly quesiton, but why does etherx encapsulate the config data within a config tag, AND a CDATA? Config Data and Tags]]> Is this a long term implementation that we're going to use? I'm not sure I actually understand why we'd want etherx to present ALL data this way.. --- Thomas Charron --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- Share what you know. Learn what you don't. From owner-jdev@jabber.org Mon Jul 12 12:52:04 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA28692 for jdev-list; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 12:52:04 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from localhost (jeremie@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA28689 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 12:52:02 -0500 Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 12:52:02 -0500 (CDT) From: Jeremie X-Sender: jeremie@mondo.eppg.com To: jdev@jabber.org Subject: Re: [JDEV] AOL+, ISP usage, etc.. In-Reply-To: <3787A095.6ECBFABA@box5.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org > Hey all, everyone so often I pop in here when I hear something about > AOL. I work on the libfaim AIM library, and have heard the same rumors > about AOL slowly removing ICQ. Anyway, to the person that is going to > work on the transport, I'd be glad to help if you need it. I originally > was going to write a transport using libfaim, but discovered I would > have to rewrite how it handles the array of connections. I may do this > when I have more time, but work doesn't let up =) Either way I know a > lot about the actual OSCAR protocol and a lot about the TOC protocol > (bad, evil, no ;-) ). Wonderful! Who actually manages libfaim, you or Adam? I have a copy already checked in under transports/aim/libfaim and am in the middle of building a prototype around libfaim similiar to the icq prototype(forking model). IMHO, the brunt of the work will be in converting libfaim to an multi-connection model. From what I can tell, using pth (http://www.gnu.org/software/pth/pth.html) to spawn a thread for each connection and internal timer would work well. After I transition jabber.org to a team model, we can form an AIM team around this. I have a few ideas written up somewhere that I can throw into the mix after we get moving on the aim transport. Thanks, Jer From owner-jdev@jabber.org Mon Jul 12 12:56:12 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA28721 for jdev-list; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 12:56:12 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from localhost (jeremie@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA28718 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 12:56:10 -0500 Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 12:56:10 -0500 (CDT) From: Jeremie X-Sender: jeremie@mondo.eppg.com To: jdev@jabber.org Subject: Re: [JDEV] Silly Question? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org > Silly quesiton, but why does etherx encapsulate the config data within a > config tag, AND a CDATA? > > > Config Data and Tags]]> > > > Is this a long term implementation that we're going to use? I'm not > sure I actually understand why we'd want etherx to present ALL data this > way.. Because it protects the configuration environment's "namespace" so that it doesn't conflict with etherx's protocol. Also, the configuration data might not be valid XML or XML at all(although then it would have to be loaded via some other means, which might be possible some day), and the transport asking for it might still want it that way :) It's really just a layer of protection around foreign data. Jer From owner-jdev@jabber.org Mon Jul 12 13:39:26 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA29116 for jdev-list; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 13:39:26 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from hermes.ezwv.com (hermes.ezwv.com [208.163.10.16]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA29110 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 13:39:24 -0500 Received: from muar241 (MUAR241.MARSHALL.EDU [206.212.37.241]) by hermes.ezwv.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id NAA05942 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 13:35:36 -0400 Message-ID: <002d01becc8d$75796e60$f125d4ce@marshall.edu> From: "Paul L. McNeely" To: References: Subject: Re: [JDEV] WinCVS Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 13:39:13 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org Did you have any luck with it? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Paul L. McNeely (drderail@i.am) ICQ# 1305664 Web Page: http://i.am/drderail Voicemail: 1-888-TELEBOT Extension: 37337245 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- West Virginia Christian Chat Mailing List Sign up at onelist.com or E-mail me. Marshall University Chat Mailing List http://muchat.listbot.com -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- ----- Original Message ----- From: Thomas D. Charron To: Sent: Saturday, July 10, 1999 11:33 AM Subject: Re: [JDEV] WinCVS I will test it out tonight.. If you have a JVM installed, I've used the Java CVS client with much success under Win32.. --- Thomas Charron On Fri, 9 Jul 1999 22:37:56 Paul L. McNeely wrote: >If Anyone has been able to access the CVS server from WinCVS please let me >know I need yo know what I'm doing wrong. >-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- >Paul L. McNeely (drderail@i.am) ICQ# 1305664 >Web Page: http://i.am/drderail >Voicemail: 1-888-TELEBOT Extension: 37337245 >-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > West Virginia Christian Chat Mailing List > Sign up at onelist.com or E-mail me. > Marshall University Chat Mailing List > http://muchat.listbot.com >-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > > > --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- Share what you know. Learn what you don't. From owner-jdev@jabber.org Mon Jul 12 13:54:51 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA29195 for jdev-list; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 13:54:51 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from mc-qout4.whowhere.com (mc-qout4.whowhere.com [209.185.123.18]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA29189 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 13:54:47 -0500 Received: from Unknown/Local ([?.?.?.?]) by my-deja.com; Mon Jul 12 10:54:07 1999 To: jdev@jabber.org, jdev@jabber.org Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 10:54:07 -0700 From: "Thomas D. Charron" Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sent-Mail: off X-Expiredinmiddle: true X-Mailer: MailCity Service Subject: Re: [JDEV] Silly Question? X-Sender-Ip: 206.50.182.5 Organization: My Deja Email (http://www.my-deja.com:80) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org >> Silly quesiton, but why does etherx encapsulate the config data within a >> config tag, AND a CDATA? >Because it protects the configuration environment's "namespace" so that it >doesn't conflict with etherx's protocol. Also, the configuration data >might not be valid XML or XML at all(although then it would have to be >loaded via some other means, which might be possible some day), and the >transport asking for it might still want it that way :) It's really just >a layer of protection around foreign data. Ok, understandable.. So it will send EVERYTHING that was parsed out of the config file, not just XML tags, but comments as well? Sounds like a darned good idea.. You could actually include a perl script or something within the config file.. Not to shabby.. Now, one final thing then.. Can we make it rip of the tags WITHIN the CDATA segment? It really shouldn't be passing it, as it would be redundant to include it WITHIN the CDATA, 'spec when we have the formating as descibed above.. Nice idea, though, means transports aren't tied to XML for configuration data.. --- Thomas Charron --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- Share what you know. Learn what you don't. From owner-jdev@jabber.org Mon Jul 12 13:54:55 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA29196 for jdev-list; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 13:54:55 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from mc-qout4.whowhere.com (mc-qout4.whowhere.com [209.185.123.18]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA29188 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 13:54:47 -0500 Received: from Unknown/Local ([?.?.?.?]) by my-deja.com; Mon Jul 12 10:54:07 1999 To: jdev@jabber.org, jdev@jabber.org Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 10:54:07 -0700 From: "Thomas D. Charron" Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sent-Mail: off X-Expiredinmiddle: true X-Mailer: MailCity Service Subject: Re: [JDEV] Silly Question? X-Sender-Ip: 206.50.182.5 Organization: My Deja Email (http://www.my-deja.com:80) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org >> Silly quesiton, but why does etherx encapsulate the config data within a >> config tag, AND a CDATA? >Because it protects the configuration environment's "namespace" so that it >doesn't conflict with etherx's protocol. Also, the configuration data >might not be valid XML or XML at all(although then it would have to be >loaded via some other means, which might be possible some day), and the >transport asking for it might still want it that way :) It's really just >a layer of protection around foreign data. Ok, understandable.. So it will send EVERYTHING that was parsed out of the config file, not just XML tags, but comments as well? Sounds like a darned good idea.. You could actually include a perl script or something within the config file.. Not to shabby.. Now, one final thing then.. Can we make it rip of the tags WITHIN the CDATA segment? It really shouldn't be passing it, as it would be redundant to include it WITHIN the CDATA, 'spec when we have the formating as descibed above.. Nice idea, though, means transports aren't tied to XML for configuration data.. --- Thomas Charron --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- Share what you know. Learn what you don't. From owner-jdev@jabber.org Mon Jul 12 14:12:29 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA29381 for jdev-list; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 14:12:29 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from mc-qout4.whowhere.com (mc-qout4.whowhere.com [209.185.123.18]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA29378 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 14:12:26 -0500 Received: from Unknown/Local ([?.?.?.?]) by my-deja.com; Mon Jul 12 11:11:52 1999 To: "Jabber Development" Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 11:11:52 -0700 From: "Thomas D. Charron" Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sent-Mail: off X-Mailer: MailCity Service Subject: [JDEV] Transport Name resolution.. X-Sender-Ip: 206.50.182.5 Organization: My Deja Email (http://www.my-deja.com:80) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org Guys, I have a quickie question about something I really haven't looked at quite yet.. How does jabber handle address <=> real world lookups? Take these examples: TwOlf@jabber.jabber.org Admin@jabber.org #slashdot@slashnet.jabber.org How will these address? Here's what I'm gathering: Namespace is per address, aka, Jabber.org means send it to etherx at jabber.org. You can also append a transport at the top level, Aka: TwOlf@jabber.jabber.org would specifically route it to the transport named 'Jabber' at jabber.org. Likewise with #slashdot@slashnet.jabber.org, except to the slashnet transport at jabber.org.. Now here's the doozie.. How does it determine this. Here's my case: I have a domain, leagion.tiac.net. My machine IS leagion.tiac.net, so my Jabber addy would be twolf@leagion.tiac.net. How does jabber know NOT to route it to the leagion transport on tiac.net, but to the etherx at leagion.tiac.net. Likewise, would twolf@jabber.leagion.tiac.net resolve corrently? I'm about to borrow some more in the source, but it occured to me as I was thinkin.. --- Thomas Charron --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- Share what you know. Learn what you don't. From owner-jdev@jabber.org Mon Jul 12 16:25:36 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA30512 for jdev-list; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 16:25:36 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from localhost (jeremie@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA30509 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 16:25:34 -0500 Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 16:25:33 -0500 (CDT) From: Jeremie X-Sender: jeremie@mondo.eppg.com To: jdev@jabber.org Subject: Re: [JDEV] Silly Question? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org > Now, one final thing then.. Can we make it rip of the tags > WITHIN the CDATA segment? It really shouldn't be passing it, as it > would be redundant to include it WITHIN the CDATA, 'spec when we have > the formating as descibed above.. Ahhh... another catch, if you want to pass that chunk of string data to an XML parser, it has to be wrapped by a root tag to be well-formed XML, so some sort of has to be around it. It sure looks redundant, but it all makes sense ;-) Jer From owner-jdev@jabber.org Mon Jul 12 16:30:13 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA30543 for jdev-list; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 16:30:13 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from localhost (jeremie@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA30540 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 16:30:11 -0500 Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 16:30:11 -0500 (CDT) From: Jeremie X-Sender: jeremie@mondo.eppg.com To: Jabber Development Subject: Re: [JDEV] Transport Name resolution.. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org Well, simply, foo.bar.com isn't assumed to mean the foo transport at bar.com. Any hostname in an address explicitly means that address, there's no fudging going on there. So #slashdot@slashnet.jabber.org would require a host slashnet.jabber.org with etherx running there and a transport that has "slashnet.jabber.org" as it's alias. The only way to reference a transport on the internet is to have a hostname for it and etherx running on that host, and have the transport notify etherx of it's address so the data can be routed to it. Jer On Mon, 12 Jul 1999, Thomas D. Charron wrote: > Guys, I have a quickie question about something I really haven't looked at quite yet.. How does jabber handle address <=> real world lookups? Take these examples: > > TwOlf@jabber.jabber.org > Admin@jabber.org > #slashdot@slashnet.jabber.org > > How will these address? Here's what I'm gathering: > > Namespace is per address, aka, Jabber.org means send it to etherx at jabber.org. You can also append a transport at the top level, Aka: TwOlf@jabber.jabber.org would specifically route it to the transport named 'Jabber' at jabber.org. Likewise with #slashdot@slashnet.jabber.org, except to the slashnet transport at jabber.org.. Now here's the doozie.. How does it determine this. Here's my case: > > I have a domain, leagion.tiac.net. My machine IS leagion.tiac.net, so my Jabber addy would be twolf@leagion.tiac.net. How does jabber know NOT to route it to the leagion transport on tiac.net, but to the etherx at leagion.tiac.net. Likewise, would twolf@jabber.leagion.tiac.net resolve corrently? > > I'm about to borrow some more in the source, but it occured to me as I was thinkin.. > > > --- > Thomas Charron > > > --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- > Share what you know. Learn what you don't. > From owner-jdev@jabber.org Mon Jul 12 20:44:58 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA32005 for jdev-list; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 20:44:58 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from mc-qout4.whowhere.com (mc-qout4.whowhere.com [209.185.123.18]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA32001 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 20:44:56 -0500 Received: from Unknown/Local ([?.?.?.?]) by my-deja.com; Mon Jul 12 17:44:10 1999 To: "Patrick McCuller" , "Jabber Development" Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 17:44:10 -0700 From: "Thomas D. Charron" Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sent-Mail: off X-Mailer: MailCity Service Subject: [JDEV] RE: Greetings, and questions.. X-Sender-Ip: 205.161.31.49 Organization: My Deja Email (http://www.my-deja.com:80) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org Thanks for the infor.. I'm CCing this to Jabber Dev to see if anyone else may have heard from him.. I honestly haven't heard anything out of the JabberBeans for a LONG while.. --- Thomas Charron On Mon, 12 Jul 1999 19:11:16 Patrick McCuller wrote: > > Don't expect much of any practical use soon. I've been following this group >for well over a year, since they were the rvp people, and they're very slow >about things like implementation. > > Of course, they're fun to watch, and a lot of very bright people are >involved, with lots to say, and from many different sources - Sun, Lotus, >Microsoft, IBM, and a wide variety of vendors, students, and developers. But >they're a standards body, not a developer's organization. Expect things to >take a whole lot longer than you expect them to. :) > > In any event, welcome! > > BTW, I'm trying to get ahold of Michael T. Nygard re: JabberBean. I've >written him @charter.net but no luck so far; any ideas? > > >Patrick > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-impp@iastate.edu [mailto:owner-impp@iastate.edu]On Behalf Of >> Thomas D. Charron >> Sent: Monday, July 12, 1999 2:53 PM >> To: impp@iastate.edu >> Subject: Greetings, and questions.. >> >> >> Hello.. >> >> I have joined this mailing list to try to find out exactly >> what the IMPP commitee is developing. It seems to me from the >> current RFC proposals that they are simply defining the standard >> terms and requirments of an IM system, but not an actually open >> protocol, etc.. >> >> I am interested in this, as I am a developer for a project >> named 'Jabber'. Our open Source, XML based IM system is quickly >> reaching an actually usable state, and figured it would be a good >> time to find out exactly what is going on with the IMPP commitee. >> If you are interested in the design, etc of jabber, please feel >> free to take a look at http://www.jabber.org. While our protocol >> is 'pretty much' down, it's still under development, it is a >> workable design, utilizing a system independent arcitechture, >> that allows for infinite expansion or custom protocols and >> 'bridges' between other IM services. Examples would be ICQ, AOL, and IRC. >> >> Hopfully, with all of us working together, we can achive the >> ability for IM users to communicate in a platform/language >> independent method, without the chains of a brand name.. >> >> >> --- >> Thomas Charron >> >> >> --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- >> Share what you know. Learn what you don't. >> > > --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- Share what you know. Learn what you don't. From owner-jdev@jabber.org Mon Jul 12 20:59:41 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA32146 for jdev-list; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 20:59:41 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from mc-qout4.whowhere.com (mc-qout4.whowhere.com [209.185.123.18]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA32143 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 20:59:39 -0500 Received: from Unknown/Local ([?.?.?.?]) by my-deja.com; Mon Jul 12 17:58:48 1999 To: jdev@jabber.org Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 17:58:49 -0700 From: "Thomas D. Charron" Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sent-Mail: off X-Mailer: MailCity Service Subject: Re: [JDEV] Transport Name resolution.. X-Sender-Ip: 205.161.31.49 Organization: My Deja Email (http://www.my-deja.com:80) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org Ok, I'm a little confused here.. How are we then going to handle single users utilizing multiple transports, without forcing the users to deal with actual DNS lookups? There HAS to be a better way of doing this.. If I'm TwOlf@jabber.org, how does jabber.org know how to reach me? Are we forced to actually go thru the ./jabbertransport for all usage? Here's my problem. Several months ago we had talked about remote server usage. In the scheme, as I know understand it, in order for me to use, let's say the ICQ gateway, I will need my local jabber server to actually RUN the ICQ transport, unless a remote server actually has an actual DNS entry for, let's say icq.tiac.net. While this is all (just now) starting to make sense, I'm thinking that there has to be a way to accomidate both worlds, both true domain name and aliased transports.. The current method will work great, untill Jer wants to connect to leagion.tiac.net to the irc gateway. Won't work, unless I actually set up a DNS alias FOR slashnet.leagion.tiac.net. Hrm.. Perhaps that IS the best answer.. just require DNS aliasing? --- Thomas Charron On Mon, 12 Jul 1999 16:30:11 Jeremie wrote: >Well, simply, foo.bar.com isn't assumed to mean the foo transport at >bar.com. Any hostname in an address explicitly means that address, >there's no fudging going on there. So #slashdot@slashnet.jabber.org would >require a host slashnet.jabber.org with etherx running there and a >transport that has "slashnet.jabber.org" as it's alias. > >The only way to reference a transport on the internet is to have a >hostname for it and etherx running on that host, and have the transport >notify etherx of it's address so the data can be routed to it. > >Jer > >On Mon, 12 Jul 1999, Thomas D. Charron wrote: > >> Guys, I have a quickie question about something I really haven't looked at quite yet.. How does jabber handle address <=> real world lookups? Take these examples: >> >> TwOlf@jabber.jabber.org >> Admin@jabber.org >> #slashdot@slashnet.jabber.org >> >> How will these address? Here's what I'm gathering: >> >> Namespace is per address, aka, Jabber.org means send it to etherx at jabber.org. You can also append a transport at the top level, Aka: TwOlf@jabber.jabber.org would specifically route it to the transport named 'Jabber' at jabber.org. Likewise with #slashdot@slashnet.jabber.org, except to the slashnet transport at jabber.org.. Now here's the doozie.. How does it determine this. Here's my case: >> >> I have a domain, leagion.tiac.net. My machine IS leagion.tiac.net, so my Jabber addy would be twolf@leagion.tiac.net. How does jabber know NOT to route it to the leagion transport on tiac.net, but to the etherx at leagion.tiac.net. Likewise, would twolf@jabber.leagion.tiac.net resolve corrently? >> >> I'm about to borrow some more in the source, but it occured to me as I was thinkin.. >> >> >> --- >> Thomas Charron >> >> >> --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- >> Share what you know. Learn what you don't. >> > > --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- Share what you know. Learn what you don't. From owner-jdev@jabber.org Tue Jul 13 09:28:20 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA02563 for jdev-list; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 09:28:20 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from calloway.mit.edu (CALLOWAY.MIT.EDU [18.55.1.20]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA02560 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 09:28:17 -0500 Received: (from belg4mit@localhost) by calloway.mit.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA31981; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 09:29:48 -0400 From: Jerrad Pierce Message-Id: <199907131329.JAA31981@calloway.mit.edu> To: jdev@jabber.org Subject: [JDEV] "newbie" Organization: a) Discordia b) none c) what's that? Content-Typo: gibberish, charset=ascii-art Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 09:29:47 EDT Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org So two things 1) Just so I'm clear, transports are plugin's for the server? Has there been any discussion about a zephyr plugin? (http://www.mit.edu/~zephyr/home.html OR zion [perl-savvy ver.] http://www.mit.edu/~mkgray/zion/) I'm not sure who else (other than MIT) uses zephyr anymore, but I know CalTech used to. And it really does seem to be a powerful mechanism. (Plus you then have a second windows client among others right off the bat) 2) What is CLI going to be written in? Because I'd like to do a Perl version of jabber (it doesn't seem to be being done already). Any suggestions for names? PABA is the only thing that comes to mind (Perl + Jabber = Pabber; bostonAccent(Pabber) = Pabah; ) jp -- Please take the time to answer the simple survey at: http://www.pthbb.org/cgi.bin/survey/ * __ * . \ | / . . . . . ((_ _____ . . . -- / \ -- . . . + . . _/\ oooooooooo. | * . . . * / ;M\_ . .oooooooooooo.oo. . . . . /\ . / :IMM\ ..oooooooooooo..oo. Jerrad Pierce /\ / \ / ;IIWMM ..oooooooooo....... 209 North Street + / \ / \ . / ;IIIIWM ...ooooooooo....... Randolph, MA 02368 / \ \ ___/ :;IIIIIWM ....ooo....o....... / \ \ / :: ;;IIIMI .....ooo......... http://www.pthbb.org / \ \ : :::;IIIM ..ooooooo.... __________________________ || || ::.....:::::: MOTD on Prickle-Prickle, the 48th of Confusion, in the YOLD 3165: "So little time, so little to do." --Oscar Levant From owner-jdev@jabber.org Tue Jul 13 10:11:33 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA02917 for jdev-list; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 10:11:33 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from calloway.mit.edu (CALLOWAY.MIT.EDU [18.55.1.20]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA02908 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 10:11:30 -0500 Received: (from belg4mit@localhost) by calloway.mit.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA32295; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 10:13:01 -0400 Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 10:13:01 -0400 From: Jerrad Pierce Message-Id: <199907131413.KAA32295@calloway.mit.edu> To: jdev@jabber.org Subject: [JDEV] re: "newbie" -> transports Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org In reply to your message from the not too distant future: next Tuesday AD Reply-to: belg4mit@mit.edu Return-receipt-to: belg4mit@mit.edu Organization: a) Discordia b) none c) what's that? Content-Typo: gibberish, charset=ascii-art Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 10:13:01 EDT From: belg4mit Let me clarify, shouldn't have said transport since that's jabber for a message/datagram/etc. I mean protocol, sorry. -- Please take the time to answer the simple survey at: http://www.pthbb.org/cgi.bin/survey/ * __ * . \ | / . . . . . ((_ _____ . . . -- / \ -- . . . + . . _/\ oooooooooo. | * . . . * / ;M\_ . .oooooooooooo.oo. . . . . /\ . / :IMM\ ..oooooooooooo..oo. Jerrad Pierce /\ / \ / ;IIWMM ..oooooooooo....... 209 North Street + / \ / \ . / ;IIIIWM ...ooooooooo....... Randolph, MA 02368 / \ \ ___/ :;IIIIIWM ....ooo....o....... / \ \ / :: ;;IIIMI .....ooo......... http://www.pthbb.org / \ \ : :::;IIIM ..ooooooo.... __________________________ || || ::.....:::::: MOTD on Prickle-Prickle, the 48th of Confusion, in the YOLD 3165: "So little time, so little to do." --Oscar Levant From owner-jdev@jabber.org Tue Jul 13 10:25:57 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA03053 for jdev-list; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 10:25:57 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from localhost (jeremie@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA03050 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 10:25:55 -0500 Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 10:25:55 -0500 (CDT) From: Jeremie X-Sender: jeremie@mondo.eppg.com To: jdev@jabber.org Subject: Re: [JDEV] Transport Name resolution.. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org > Ok, I'm a little confused here.. How are we then going to handle > single users utilizing multiple transports, without forcing the users to > deal with actual DNS lookups? There HAS to be a better way of doing > this.. If I'm TwOlf@jabber.org, how does jabber.org know how to reach > me? Are we forced to actually go thru the ./jabbertransport for all > usage? Here's my problem. Ahh... Well, all transports living within one etherx zone, or on the same server, can all speak to each other via their local name, such as "jabber" or "ICQ" or "IRC", etc... So, if I have an ICQ transport installed at jabber.org and I'm jeremie@jabber.org, I could address the ICQ transport as 123456@ICQ. Local names are resolved locally, to reach other servers there must be a DNS name. > Several months ago we had talked about remote server usage. In the > scheme, as I know understand it, in order for me to use, let's say the > ICQ gateway, I will need my local jabber server to actually RUN the ICQ > transport, unless a remote server actually has an actual DNS entry for, > let's say icq.tiac.net. While this is all (just now) starting to make > sense, I'm thinking that there has to be a way to accomidate both > worlds, both true domain name and aliased transports.. Well, local transports are strictly local and can only speak locally unless provided an Internet DNS name. So their aliases work locally and they become accessible on the net when provided a net name, is there something this leaves out? > The current method will work great, untill Jer wants to connect to > leagion.tiac.net to the irc gateway. Won't work, unless I actually set > up a DNS alias FOR slashnet.leagion.tiac.net. Hrm.. Perhaps that IS > the best answer.. just require DNS aliasing? Yup, that was my conclusion... if you want your server to be accessible on the net, it needs a DNS name, just like email :) Jer From owner-jdev@jabber.org Tue Jul 13 10:45:31 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA03217 for jdev-list; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 10:45:31 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from localhost (jeremie@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA03214 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 10:45:29 -0500 Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 10:45:28 -0500 (CDT) From: Jeremie X-Sender: jeremie@mondo.eppg.com To: jdev@jabber.org Subject: Re: [JDEV] "newbie" In-Reply-To: <199907131329.JAA31981@calloway.mit.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org > So two things > > 1) Just so I'm clear, transports are plugin's for the server? Transports are basically mini-servers that talk Jabber on one side(to each other) and either talk to end users directly or talk to another messaging service and translate between them. > Has there been any discussion about a zephyr plugin? > (http://www.mit.edu/~zephyr/home.html > OR zion [perl-savvy ver.] http://www.mit.edu/~mkgray/zion/) > I'm not sure who else (other than MIT) uses zephyr anymore, > but I know CalTech used to. And it really does seem to be a > powerful mechanism. (Plus you then have a second windows > client among others right off the bat) I'm aware of both of them, and from what I've seen writing a transport for both of them shouldn't be too difficult. If there's interest, I can set up a team or project for either of these in a week or so. > 2) What is CLI going to be written in? Because I'd like to do a > Perl version of jabber (it doesn't seem to be being done > already). Any suggestions for names? PABA is the only thing > that comes to mind (Perl + Jabber = Pabber; > bostonAccent(Pabber) = Pabah; ) As far as CLI, there is one simple test one included, but any effort towards a fully blown curses based one would be great. There is a perl module for Jabber already working and in beta, Net::Jabber. It's not on CPAN yet but available in CVS. Using that module you can write a simple perl script that will work as a Jabber client and provide all the back-end for it. Net::Etherx should also arrive in time(after Net::Jabber has matured a bit since it shares much of the functionality) to provide the tools to write simple Perl transports. Jer From owner-jdev@jabber.org Tue Jul 13 12:17:06 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA03927 for jdev-list; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 12:17:06 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from mc-qout4.whowhere.com (mc-qout4.whowhere.com [209.185.123.18]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA03924 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 12:17:03 -0500 Received: from Unknown/Local ([?.?.?.?]) by my-deja.com; Tue Jul 13 09:16:27 1999 To: jdev@jabber.org Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 09:16:27 -0700 From: "Thomas D. Charron" Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sent-Mail: off X-Mailer: MailCity Service Subject: Re: [JDEV] Transport Name resolution.. X-Sender-Ip: 206.50.182.6 Organization: My Deja Email (http://www.my-deja.com:80) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org On Tue, 13 Jul 1999 10:25:55 Jeremie wrote: > >Ahh... Well, all transports living within one etherx zone, or on the same >server, can all speak to each other via their local name, such as "jabber" >or "ICQ" or "IRC", etc... So, if I have an ICQ transport installed at >jabber.org and I'm jeremie@jabber.org, I could address the ICQ transport >as 123456@ICQ. Local names are resolved locally, to reach other servers >there must be a DNS name. Yea, the more I thought, the more it all makes sense.. ;-P This is also an VERY good way to deal with allowed remote usage or not.. If there is no DNS for it, no one remote can use it.. >Yup, that was my conclusion... if you want your server to be accessible on >the net, it needs a DNS name, just like email :) Speaking of which, how well will etherx talk to etherx currently? Aka, if I have etherx and jabbertransport starting on bootup (Which I do) can I start throwing stuff out to jer@jabber.org? Haven't even tried, but the capabilities there, just wasn't sure if it was fully implemented.. --- Thomas Charron --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- Share what you know. Learn what you don't. From owner-jdev@jabber.org Tue Jul 13 12:18:18 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA03937 for jdev-list; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 12:18:18 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from mc-qout4.whowhere.com (mc-qout4.whowhere.com [209.185.123.18]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA03934 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 12:18:16 -0500 Received: from Unknown/Local ([?.?.?.?]) by my-deja.com; Tue Jul 13 09:17:35 1999 To: jdev@jabber.org Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 09:17:36 -0700 From: "Thomas D. Charron" Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sent-Mail: off X-Mailer: MailCity Service Subject: Re: [JDEV] "newbie" X-Sender-Ip: 206.50.182.6 Organization: My Deja Email (http://www.my-deja.com:80) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org >There is a perl module for Jabber already working and in beta, >Net::Jabber. It's not on CPAN yet but available in CVS. Using that >module you can write a simple perl script that will work as a Jabber >client and provide all the back-end for it. Net::Etherx should also >arrive in time(after Net::Jabber has matured a bit since it shares much of >the functionality) to provide the tools to write simple Perl transports. --- Thomas Charron --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- Share what you know. Learn what you don't. From owner-jdev@jabber.org Tue Jul 13 12:20:15 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA03967 for jdev-list; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 12:20:15 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from mc-qout4.whowhere.com (mc-qout4.whowhere.com [209.185.123.18]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA03964 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 12:20:13 -0500 Received: from Unknown/Local ([?.?.?.?]) by my-deja.com; Tue Jul 13 09:19:37 1999 To: jdev@jabber.org Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 09:19:37 -0700 From: "Thomas D. Charron" Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sent-Mail: off X-Expiredinmiddle: true X-Mailer: MailCity Service Subject: Re: [JDEV] "newbie" X-Sender-Ip: 206.50.182.6 Organization: My Deja Email (http://www.my-deja.com:80) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org >There is a perl module for Jabber already working and in beta, >Net::Jabber. It's not on CPAN yet but available in CVS. Using that >module you can write a simple perl script that will work as a Jabber >client and provide all the back-end for it. Net::Etherx should also >arrive in time(after Net::Jabber has matured a bit since it shares much of >the functionality) to provide the tools to write simple Perl transports. Actually, I need to talk to you about this.. How much do you have done more then what is currently in CVS? I've been massaging it a little to make it function in a simular maner to how the Net::IRC module works on the client end (Making it MUCH easier on Multiclients, as the connections are now distinct objects), and something simular on the Net::Jabber::Transport, as I've called it.. --- Thomas Charron --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- Share what you know. Learn what you don't. From owner-jdev@jabber.org Tue Jul 13 12:23:09 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA04017 for jdev-list; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 12:23:09 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from mc-qout4.whowhere.com (mc-qout4.whowhere.com [209.185.123.18]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA04013 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 12:23:07 -0500 Received: from Unknown/Local ([?.?.?.?]) by my-deja.com; Tue Jul 13 09:22:26 1999 To: jdev@jabber.org Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 09:22:26 -0700 From: "Thomas D. Charron" Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sent-Mail: off X-Mailer: MailCity Service Subject: Re: [JDEV] "newbie" X-Sender-Ip: 206.50.182.6 Organization: My Deja Email (http://www.my-deja.com:80) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org >1) Just so I'm clear, transports are plugin's for the server? Simular.. Jabber is a 3 tier arcitechure, with a Client, a Transport, and a 'Router'. >2) What is CLI going to be written in? Because I'd like to do a > Perl version of jabber (it doesn't seem to be being done > already). Any suggestions for names? PABA is the only thing > that comes to mind (Perl + Jabber = Pabber; > bostonAccent(Pabber) = Pabah; ) Perl Modules are under way, which can give you a decent start. I have a base line Multiclient and transport working, so you'd it'd give you a good headstart.. --- Thomas Charron --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- Share what you know. Learn what you don't. From owner-jdev@jabber.org Tue Jul 13 12:24:27 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA04027 for jdev-list; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 12:24:27 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from mc-qout4.whowhere.com (mc-qout4.whowhere.com [209.185.123.18]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA04024 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 12:24:24 -0500 Received: from Unknown/Local ([?.?.?.?]) by my-deja.com; Tue Jul 13 09:23:45 1999 To: jdev@jabber.org Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 09:23:45 -0700 From: "Thomas D. Charron" Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sent-Mail: off X-Mailer: MailCity Service Subject: Re: [JDEV] re: "newbie" -> transports X-Sender-Ip: 206.50.182.6 Organization: My Deja Email (http://www.my-deja.com:80) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org >Let me clarify, shouldn't have said transport since that's jabber for a >message/datagram/etc. I mean protocol, sorry. That's it.. Your fired.. Who hired this guy.. What? Where doing this for free on volunteer? Oh.. Hrm.. Ok, your forgiven, but don't let it happen again.. (DISCLAIMER: JOKE!) --- Thomas Charron --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- Share what you know. Learn what you don't. From owner-jdev@jabber.org Tue Jul 13 12:40:52 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA04331 for jdev-list; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 12:40:52 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from ins21.netins.net (ins21.netins.net [167.142.225.21]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA04327 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 12:40:50 -0500 Received: from worf.netins.net (jeremie@worf.netins.net [167.142.225.4]) by ins21.netins.net (8.9.3/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA17583 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 11:40:50 -0500 (CDT) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 11:40:49 -0500 (CDT) From: Jeremie Miller To: jdev@jabber.org Subject: Re: [JDEV] Transport Name resolution.. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org > Speaking of which, how well will etherx talk to etherx currently? > Aka, if I have etherx and jabbertransport starting on bootup (Which I > do) can I start throwing stuff out to jer@jabber.org? Haven't even > tried, but the capabilities there, just wasn't sure if it was fully > implemented.. Yup, I've tested it and it works... I don't have a server running @jabber.org at the moment though. Jer From owner-jdev@jabber.org Tue Jul 13 12:44:55 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA04423 for jdev-list; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 12:44:55 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from ins21.netins.net (ins21.netins.net [167.142.225.21]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA04420 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 12:44:53 -0500 Received: from worf.netins.net (jeremie@worf.netins.net [167.142.225.4]) by ins21.netins.net (8.9.3/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA15578 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 11:44:53 -0500 (CDT) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 11:44:52 -0500 (CDT) From: Jeremie Miller To: jdev@jabber.org Subject: Re: [JDEV] "newbie" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org > Actually, I need to talk to you about this.. How much do you have > done more then what is currently in CVS? I've been massaging it a > little to make it function in a simular maner to how the Net::IRC > module works on the client end (Making it MUCH easier on Multiclients, > as the connections are now distinct objects), and something simular on > the Net::Jabber::Transport, as I've called it.. I've been planning on creating a Perl team, throwing this perl stuff all together, creating a list and CVS repo, and getting things figured out there... give me a week and I'll bring it online on the new server(who's network card just died this morning @#^&@$*%^!). Jer From owner-jdev@jabber.org Tue Jul 13 14:57:01 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA05496 for jdev-list; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 14:57:01 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from calloway.mit.edu (CALLOWAY.MIT.EDU [18.55.1.20]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA05493 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 14:56:58 -0500 Received: (from belg4mit@localhost) by calloway.mit.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA00913; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 14:58:30 -0400 Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 14:58:30 -0400 From: Jerrad Pierce Message-Id: <199907131858.OAA00913@calloway.mit.edu> To: jdev@jabber.org Subject: [JDEV] textual client, perl Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org In reply to your message from the not too distant future: next Tuesday AD Reply-to: belg4mit@mit.edu Return-receipt-to: belg4mit@mit.edu Organization: a) Discordia b) none c) what's that? Content-Typo: gibberish, charset=ascii-art Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 14:58:29 EDT From: belg4mit Okay, well the modules will simplify a few things I guess. I'm hoping/assuming you didn't reinvent the wheel and use XML::Parse? What I was thinking of doing was this: Have a proxy-client connect to the server and authenticate itself, then go into the background. The user can then run a seperate process(es) to connect to this to send messages. This saves the overhead of having to authenticate every-time, and lends itself better to text-mode multi-tasking (screen, ^Z) and execution from within emacs. One question about implenting this though, is the server savvy enough to mark the user as offline if the user doesn't explicitly send an offline message (logs off without properly shutting down the authentication client)? PS> For security the authentication client would probably do somehting like: check to see that the message came from the user with the same uid that started the client AND/OR set an env var to some magic cookie, and upon receipt of a message from the client check to see that it has the right cookie PPS>where are these mythical modules, I don't see them on the developers site.. jp -- Please take the time to answer the simple survey at: http://www.pthbb.org/cgi.bin/survey/ * __ * . \ | / . . . . . ((_ _____ . . . -- / \ -- . . . + . . _/\ oooooooooo. | * . . . * / ;M\_ . .oooooooooooo.oo. . . . . /\ . / :IMM\ ..oooooooooooo..oo. Jerrad Pierce /\ / \ / ;IIWMM ..oooooooooo....... 209 North Street + / \ / \ . / ;IIIIWM ...ooooooooo....... Randolph, MA 02368 / \ \ ___/ :;IIIIIWM ....ooo....o....... / \ \ / :: ;;IIIMI .....ooo......... http://www.pthbb.org / \ \ : :::;IIIM ..ooooooo.... __________________________ || || ::.....:::::: MOTD on Prickle-Prickle, the 48th of Confusion, in the YOLD 3165: "So little time, so little to do." --Oscar Levant From owner-jdev@jabber.org Tue Jul 13 15:11:19 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA05611 for jdev-list; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 15:11:19 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from localhost (jeremie@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA05608 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 15:11:17 -0500 Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 15:11:17 -0500 (CDT) From: Jeremie X-Sender: jeremie@mondo.eppg.com To: jdev@jabber.org Subject: Re: [JDEV] textual client, perl In-Reply-To: <199907131858.OAA00913@calloway.mit.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org > Okay, well the modules will simplify a few things I guess. > I'm hoping/assuming you didn't reinvent the wheel and use XML::Parse? Yup... depends on a relatively new version of the XML:: stuff. > What I was thinking of doing was this: > > Have a proxy-client connect to the server and authenticate itself, then go > into the background. The user can then run a seperate process(es) to connect > to this to send messages. This saves the overhead of having to authenticate > every-time, and lends itself better to text-mode multi-tasking (screen, ^Z) > and execution from within emacs. Actually, there's a whole project/team that I'll be forming around this very issue, so that it can be done once for any command-line based clients that might need that type of functionality. It's called JNIX at the moment and I'll be creating the space for it and posting some initial proposals on the new server, should see it in a week or so. > One question about implenting this though, is the server savvy enough to mark > the user as offline if the user doesn't explicitly send an offline message > (logs off without properly shutting down the authentication client)? Yup, of course :) > PPS>where are these mythical modules, I don't see them on the developers site.. You can browse the latest CVS tree at http://jabber.org/download/latest/ then check out the clients/perl folder. Jer From owner-jdev@jabber.org Tue Jul 13 15:28:35 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA05902 for jdev-list; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 15:28:35 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from mc-qout4.whowhere.com (mc-qout4.whowhere.com [209.185.123.18]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA05898 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 15:28:33 -0500 Received: from Unknown/Local ([?.?.?.?]) by my-deja.com; Tue Jul 13 12:27:52 1999 To: jdev@jabber.org Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 12:27:52 -0700 From: "Thomas D. Charron" Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sent-Mail: off X-Mailer: MailCity Service Subject: Re: [JDEV] Transport Name resolution.. X-Sender-Ip: 206.50.182.6 Organization: My Deja Email (http://www.my-deja.com:80) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org >> Speaking of which, how well will etherx talk to etherx currently? >> Aka, if I have etherx and jabbertransport starting on bootup (Which I >> do) can I start throwing stuff out to jer@jabber.org? Haven't even >> tried, but the capabilities there, just wasn't sure if it was fully >> implemented.. >Yup, I've tested it and it works... I don't have a server running >@jabber.org at the moment though. That'll be good.. I'll have to start running mine.. I'd also propose that we try to keep an etherx server running on jabber.org soon, and we can use it to actually start to bang on the server and clients a bit.. (Not to mention the coolie affect of simply being able to actually start chatting with each other publically with jabber.. ;-P) On a side note, as soon as I get my Visual C++ Disks back, I can finish up the Win32 client to be in working order, which will add to the ability to bang on the server some more.. --- Thomas Charron --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- Share what you know. Learn what you don't. From owner-jdev@jabber.org Tue Jul 13 16:27:12 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA06411 for jdev-list; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 16:27:12 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from mc-qout4.whowhere.com (mc-qout4.whowhere.com [209.185.123.18]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA06408 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 16:27:09 -0500 Received: from Unknown/Local ([?.?.?.?]) by my-deja.com; Tue Jul 13 13:26:49 1999 To: jdev@jabber.org Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 13:26:49 -0700 From: "Thomas D. Charron" Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sent-Mail: off X-Mailer: MailCity Service Subject: Re: [JDEV] textual client, perl X-Sender-Ip: 206.50.182.6 Organization: My Deja Email (http://www.my-deja.com:80) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org >Okay, well the modules will simplify a few things I guess. >I'm hoping/assuming you didn't reinvent the wheel and use XML::Parse? Yep, using the callback ability of XML::Parser.. >Have a proxy-client connect to the server and authenticate itself, then go >into the background. The user can then run a seperate process(es) to connect >to this to send messages. This saves the overhead of having to authenticate >every-time, and lends itself better to text-mode multi-tasking (screen, ^Z) >and execution from within emacs. Not to bust any bubbles, but I'd be extremely wary of having a connection such as this, as it would be WIDE open for exploits.. It saves the overhead, but the overhead is there for a reason.. I like the direction your going, I guess I just don't like the implementation.. >PPS>where are these mythical modules, I don't see them on the developers site.. In CVS, along with the nightly snaps.. --- Thomas Charron --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- Share what you know. Learn what you don't. From owner-jdev@jabber.org Tue Jul 13 16:36:01 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA06467 for jdev-list; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 16:36:01 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from zeus.kia.net ([205.252.89.69]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA06464 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 16:35:59 -0500 Received: from scylla (client-151-200-123-31.bellatlantic.net [151.200.123.31]) by zeus.kia.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) with SMTP id QAA12653 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 16:42:19 -0400 (EDT) From: "Patrick McCuller" To: Subject: [JDEV] JabberBeans? Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 16:35:27 -0400 Message-ID: <007c01becd6f$3dbfda80$1f7bc897@scylla> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org Anyone know the status of JabberBean? I've been trying to contact Michael T. Nygard @charter.net about it with no success as yet. I'm working with the library to the extent it is finished, and it is close to finished. I would like to help, but if I'm going to complete it I should talk to the designer first, or at least some people who've been through it... there's no documentation of any kind to indicate where Michael was heading. Anyone? Thanks, Patrick > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-jdev@jabber.org [mailto:owner-jdev@jabber.org]On Behalf Of > Thomas D. Charron > Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 1999 3:28 PM > To: jdev@jabber.org > Subject: Re: [JDEV] Transport Name resolution.. > > > >> Speaking of which, how well will etherx talk to etherx currently? > >> Aka, if I have etherx and jabbertransport starting on bootup (Which I > >> do) can I start throwing stuff out to jer@jabber.org? Haven't even > >> tried, but the capabilities there, just wasn't sure if it was fully > >> implemented.. > >Yup, I've tested it and it works... I don't have a server running > >@jabber.org at the moment though. > > That'll be good.. I'll have to start running mine.. I'd also > propose that we try to keep an etherx server running on > jabber.org soon, and we can use it to actually start to bang on > the server and clients a bit.. (Not to mention the coolie affect > of simply being able to actually start chatting with each other > publically with jabber.. ;-P) > > On a side note, as soon as I get my Visual C++ Disks back, I > can finish up the Win32 client to be in working order, which will > add to the ability to bang on the server some more.. > > --- > Thomas Charron > > > > > --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- > Share what you know. Learn what you don't. > From owner-jdev@jabber.org Tue Jul 13 19:27:57 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA07707 for jdev-list; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 19:27:57 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from calloway.mit.edu (CALLOWAY.MIT.EDU [18.55.1.20]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA07704 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 19:27:55 -0500 Received: (from belg4mit@localhost) by calloway.mit.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA01753; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 19:29:28 -0400 Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 19:29:28 -0400 From: Jerrad Pierce Message-Id: <199907132329.TAA01753@calloway.mit.edu> To: jdev@jabber.org Subject: [JDEV] text client,perl-authentication Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org In reply to your message from the not too distant future: next Tuesday AD Reply-to: belg4mit@mit.edu Return-receipt-to: belg4mit@mit.edu Organization: a) Discordia b) none c) what's that? Content-Typo: gibberish, charset=ascii-art Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 19:29:26 EDT From: belg4mit I realize this could open up some holes, it'd just have to be designed well environment variables could help user, keeps it cross platform but less secure (can specify user whe telnet in) uid, not cross-platform but a bit more secure magic cookie, cross-platform use named pipes instead of sockets to do authenticated-client to message client communication similar yet more secure means (possible?, not cross-platform): logon to authenticate go into the background a shell script is run to send a signal to the authenticated client a sub-client splits into the foreground -- Please take the time to answer the simple survey at: http://www.pthbb.org/cgi.bin/survey/ * __ * . \ | / . . . . . ((_ _____ . . . -- / \ -- . . . + . . _/\ oooooooooo. | * . . . * / ;M\_ . .oooooooooooo.oo. . . . . /\ . / :IMM\ ..oooooooooooo..oo. Jerrad Pierce /\ / \ / ;IIWMM ..oooooooooo....... 209 North Street + / \ / \ . / ;IIIIWM ...ooooooooo....... Randolph, MA 02368 / \ \ ___/ :;IIIIIWM ....ooo....o....... / \ \ / :: ;;IIIMI .....ooo......... http://www.pthbb.org / \ \ : :::;IIIM ..ooooooo.... __________________________ || || ::.....:::::: MOTD on Prickle-Prickle, the 48th of Confusion, in the YOLD 3165: "So little time, so little to do." --Oscar Levant From owner-jdev@jabber.org Wed Jul 14 00:46:22 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA09264 for jdev-list; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 00:46:22 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from mail.wireweb.net (mail.wireweb.net [216.3.229.9]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA09261 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 00:46:19 -0500 Received: by mail.wireweb.net from localhost (router,SLMail V3.2); Tue, 13 Jul 1999 23:40:38 -0500 Received: by mail.wireweb.net from box5.net (216.3.228.114::mail daemon; unverified,SLMail V3.2); Tue, 13 Jul 1999 23:40:28 -0500 Message-ID: <378C1732.C0A38012@box5.net> Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 23:50:58 -0500 From: Temas X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.5-15 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: jdev@jabber.org Subject: Re: [JDEV] AOL+, ISP usage, etc.. References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SLUIDL: CE3330D0-395F11D3-BB340040-33537EE5 Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org Adam is the official maintainer of the library, but he's a lazy bum of late ;-) (You can tell him I said that). Anyway, I'll start working/checking that stuff out this weekend and see what is up. I really want to see the AIM transport come to life. I'll send some more mail to the list once I figure out what is going on. --Thomas Jeremie wrote: > > > Wonderful! > > Who actually manages libfaim, you or Adam? I have a copy already checked > in under transports/aim/libfaim and am in the middle of building a > prototype around libfaim similiar to the icq prototype(forking model). > > IMHO, the brunt of the work will be in converting libfaim to an > multi-connection model. From what I can tell, using pth > (http://www.gnu.org/software/pth/pth.html) to spawn a thread for > each connection and internal timer would work well. > > After I transition jabber.org to a team model, we can form an AIM team > around this. I have a few ideas written up somewhere that I can throw > into the mix after we get moving on the aim transport. > > Thanks, > > Jer From owner-jdev@jabber.org Wed Jul 14 01:00:21 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA09423 for jdev-list; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 01:00:21 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from raystewart.com (shiblon.lightrealm.com [209.203.232.4]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA09420 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 01:00:19 -0500 Received: from No_Host_Specified (host-209-214-46-65.pfn.bellsouth.net [209.214.46.65]) by raystewart.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA03336 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 22:00:12 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199907140500.WAA03336@raystewart.com> To: jdev@jabber.org Subject: [JDEV] DOM eval From: "Dave Smith" Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 07:01:02 PDT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Postmaster 1.0b9 for BeOS Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org Hey all.. Just a quick note to say that I'm still looking at the DOM. To be honest I've been tinkering around with Be 4.5, so I haven't really spent much time looking at code. I just got CVS working, though, so hopefully tommorow sometime I'll take a gander at the xpt stuff again and see what I can whip up. Later, skaters. D. From owner-jdev@jabber.org Wed Jul 14 14:36:59 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA13186 for jdev-list; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 14:36:59 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from localhost (jeremie@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA13183 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 14:36:57 -0500 Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 14:36:56 -0500 (CDT) From: Jeremie X-Sender: jeremie@mondo.eppg.com To: jdev@jabber.org Subject: Re: [JDEV] JabberBeans? In-Reply-To: <007c01becd6f$3dbfda80$1f7bc897@scylla> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org > Anyone know the status of JabberBean? I've been trying to contact Michael > T. Nygard @charter.net about it with no success as yet. There were a couple of people that emailed me a month or two ago saying that they would be away during the summer for a few months, I'm not sure but I think Michael might have been one of them... Hopefully he's still around and will show up soon. > I'm working with the library to the extent it is finished, and it is close > to finished. I would like to help, but if I'm going to complete it I should > talk to the designer first, or at least some people who've been through > it... there's no documentation of any kind to indicate where Michael was > heading. I know there's a few individuals out there either wanting to work on Java stuff or already playing around with it, maybe someone can jump in here and help out? Someday I'm going to have to start playing with Java :) Jer From owner-jdev@jabber.org Wed Jul 14 15:08:16 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA13460 for jdev-list; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 15:08:16 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from zeus.kia.net ([205.252.89.69]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA13457 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 15:08:14 -0500 Received: from scylla (client-151-200-123-31.bellatlantic.net [151.200.123.31]) by zeus.kia.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) with SMTP id PAA17469 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 15:14:32 -0400 (EDT) From: "Patrick McCuller" To: Subject: [JDEV] FW: jabberbeans Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 15:07:24 -0400 Message-ID: <00de01bece2c$1b3fc700$1f7bc897@scylla> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org -----Original Message----- From: Michael T. Nygard [mailto:mtnygard@charter.net] Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 1999 11:39 PM To: Patrick McCuller Subject: Re: jabberbeans > Hi. Been going through JabberBean source for about four hours now, > figured a good way to start would be top-down: Build a rudimentary GUI > and make it work. Nothing more complicated than a connect and a login. Great! Glad to hear it! I tend to work from the bottom up, since I'm not all that good with a GUI. Having someone working from the top down will really help flesh things out. > Well, as I'm sure you know, the connect went fine. Good news. > The state of the code seems to be that packet construction is > supported, and connection (only a small modification to enable the > connection receipt from the server to be retrieved and parsed was > neccessary). Sending packets and receiving them from an external (non > org.jabber.*) source isn't there. That I can see. > > I was hoping you could help me understand JabberBeans's design a > little. Class Channel is meant to abstract the connection to the Jabber > transport server, but its interface only seems to allow for connection and > disconnection. How will one extract and/or work with the packet pipeline? > There's no mechanism for this that I can find right now. Either I'm far > afield or it hasn't been implemented yet. If it has, please let me know > where :) You're quite correct. A Channel represents the connection, and will fire events to notify interested parties of changes in status. It also acts as a facade for the packet pipeline. It may be necessary to add the methods that will send and receive packets. (To be honest, it's been a while since I looked at the code...things got crazy at work.) I was working first on the pipeline, so it's likely that the Channel's API is not as mature. > If it hasn't, what's the plan? Well, feel completely free to dive in and make whatever changes or additions you like! Please be sure to sign on to the project. If you like it, and have more time to devote than I do, I'm even willing to turn stewardship of the project over. > BTW, I appreciate the use of design patterns and automatic testing > support in the code. Nice work. Thank you. I always find a complete set of test cases to be a nice "safety harness," and I _never_ let my copy of GoF out of arm's reach! > Patrick McCuller Cheers, -Mike Nygard From owner-jdev@jabber.org Wed Jul 14 15:09:56 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA13469 for jdev-list; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 15:09:56 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from zeus.kia.net ([205.252.89.69]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA13466 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 15:09:53 -0500 Received: from scylla (client-151-200-123-31.bellatlantic.net [151.200.123.31]) by zeus.kia.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) with SMTP id PAA17518 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 15:16:17 -0400 (EDT) From: "Patrick McCuller" To: Subject: RE: [JDEV] JabberBeans? Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 15:09:09 -0400 Message-ID: <00df01bece2c$59e7d100$1f7bc897@scylla> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org > > There were a couple of people that emailed me a month or two ago saying > that they would be away during the summer for a few months, I'm not sure > but I think Michael might have been one of them... Hopefully he's still > around and will show up soon. > I found him! There was no need for me to panic, I guess! :) Michael gave me a little more information on where he was taking the API; I forwarded it to JDEV for anyone else who was interested. There's good news for anyone who wants to work on a Java client: that's what I'm doing, and Jabberbeans *will* be able to handle it, because that's what I want to use. :) > > I know there's a few individuals out there either wanting to work on Java > stuff or already playing around with it, maybe someone can jump in here > and help out? Someday I'm going to have to start playing with Java :) > > Jer > Patrick From owner-jdev@jabber.org Wed Jul 14 17:34:48 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA14380 for jdev-list; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 17:34:48 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from web601.yahoomail.com (web2003.mail.yahoo.com [128.11.68.203]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA14377 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 17:34:42 -0500 Message-ID: <19990714213403.23877.rocketmail@web601.yahoomail.com> Received: from [207.8.1.21] by web2003.mail.yahoo.com; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 14:34:03 PDT Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 14:34:03 -0700 (PDT) From: Sean McCullough Subject: Re: [JDEV] FW: jabberbeans To: jdev@jabber.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org I was about to ask the very same questions! first thing I tried was moving the com.java.swing stuff over to javax.swing and then I realized that the Channel/ Pipeline code wasn't functional so it was almost all for naught. Better not make this a Me Too message: In addition to beanifying the Channel for low-level communications, how about making some UI beans for things like a Roster and a User object. That will make it easier for GUI builders to drop Jabber connections into existing apps. Another thing that may or may not be worthwhile is replacing the homegrown xml parser with the free (feeless, that is) one from javasoft. It's bulkier definately, but it's got more features. I think most of the necessary changes would be localized to ProtocolBuilder. Are there DTDs for anything in the Jabber protocol? -Sean McCullough --- Patrick McCuller wrote: > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Michael T. Nygard > [mailto:mtnygard@charter.net] > Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 1999 11:39 PM > To: Patrick McCuller > Subject: Re: jabberbeans > > > > Hi. Been going through JabberBean source for about > four hours now, > > figured a good way to start would be top-down: > Build a rudimentary GUI > > and make it work. Nothing more complicated than a > connect and a login. > > Great! Glad to hear it! I tend to work from the > bottom up, since I'm not > all that good with a GUI. Having someone working > from the top down will > really help flesh things out. > > > Well, as I'm sure you know, the connect went fine. > > Good news. > > > The state of the code seems to be that packet > construction is > > supported, and connection (only a small > modification to enable the > > connection receipt from the server to be retrieved > and parsed was > > neccessary). Sending packets and receiving them > from an external (non > > org.jabber.*) source isn't there. That I can see. > > > > I was hoping you could help me understand > JabberBeans's design a > > little. Class Channel is meant to abstract the > connection to the Jabber > > transport server, but its interface only seems to > allow for connection and > > disconnection. How will one extract and/or work > with the packet pipeline? > > There's no mechanism for this that I can find > right now. Either I'm far > > afield or it hasn't been implemented yet. If it > has, please let me know > > where :) > > You're quite correct. A Channel represents the > connection, and will fire > events to notify interested parties of changes in > status. It also acts as a > facade for the packet pipeline. It may be necessary > to add the methods that > will send and receive packets. (To be honest, it's > been a > while since I looked at the code...things got crazy > at work.) I was working > first on the pipeline, so it's likely that the > Channel's API is not as > mature. > > > If it hasn't, what's the plan? > > Well, feel completely free to dive in and make > whatever changes or additions > you like! Please be sure to sign on to the project. > If you like it, and > have more time to devote than I do, I'm even willing > to turn stewardship of > the project over. > > > BTW, I appreciate the use of design patterns and > automatic testing > > support in the code. Nice work. > > Thank you. I always find a complete set of test > cases to be a nice "safety > harness," and I _never_ let my copy of GoF out of > arm's reach! > > > Patrick McCuller > > Cheers, > -Mike Nygard > > > _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From owner-jdev@jabber.org Wed Jul 14 18:22:12 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA14721 for jdev-list; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 18:22:12 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from zeus.kia.net ([205.252.89.69]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA14718 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 18:22:08 -0500 Received: from scylla (client-151-200-123-31.bellatlantic.net [151.200.123.31]) by zeus.kia.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) with SMTP id SAA22495 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 18:28:29 -0400 (EDT) From: "Patrick McCuller" To: Subject: RE: [JDEV] FW: jabberbeans Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 18:21:15 -0400 Message-ID: <00fe01bece47$2fe095c0$1f7bc897@scylla> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 In-Reply-To: <19990714213403.23877.rocketmail@web601.yahoomail.com> Importance: Normal Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org > I was about to ask the very same questions! first thing I tried was > moving the com.java.swing stuff over > to javax.swing and then I realized that the Channel/ > Pipeline code wasn't functional so it was almost all > for naught. I'm designing additions to the Channel class to support sending/receiving packets. Expect code very soon. > > In addition to beanifying the Channel for low-level > communications, how about making some UI beans for > things like a Roster and a User object. That will > make it easier for GUI builders to drop Jabber connections into > existing apps. That's a great idea, but I suggest building a new library on top of JabberBeans to do it. JabberBeans was originally intended to be a low-level Jabber-transport API, which it will do very well I'm sure. After looking at the Swing/GUI component, I'm fairly convinced it is only there for testing purposes. It is the only place where Swing is used, for example. I fooled around with it for an hour or so too, then discarded it and wrote my own. I think there's something to gain by keeping Swing - and all GUI components - one layer above the JabberBeans. > > Another thing that may or may not be worthwhile is > replacing the homegrown xml parser with the free (feeless, that is) one > from javasoft. It's bulkier definately, but it's got more features. I > think > most of the necessary changes would be localized to > ProtocolBuilder. Are there DTDs for anything in > the Jabber protocol? Check the JDEV mailing list archive, there are a couple DTDs in there. As for the homegrown XML parser, I agree that we should substitute something more substantial. How about IBM's XML4J instead, though? > > -Sean McCullough Patrick McCuller From owner-jdev@jabber.org Thu Jul 15 16:12:10 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA21422 for jdev-list; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 16:12:10 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from calloway.mit.edu (CALLOWAY.MIT.EDU [18.55.1.20]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA21419 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 16:12:07 -0500 Received: (from belg4mit@localhost) by calloway.mit.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA09938; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 16:13:51 -0400 From: Jerrad Pierce Message-Id: <199907152013.QAA09938@calloway.mit.edu> To: jdev@jabber.org Subject: [JDEV] CLI-P Organization: a) Discordia b) none c) what's that? Content-Typo: gibberish, charset=ascii-art Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 16:13:50 EDT Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org so which provide an acceptable level of security? etc. 1) a process authenticates itself to the jabber server and then creates a named pipe somewhere in the user's home space (~/.jabber/) (~/.jabber is mode 700 and the pipe 400) the message sender talks to the authenticated process through the named pipe the authenticated process only sends the process if the uid of the sender matches the uid of the user that spawned the authenticated process... 2) the authentication process gets run in the background, on recepit of SIG it forks a child, the child receives input and returns it and exits... (since the parent is in the bg, the child will be too) advantage: the code only get's compiled the initial time it is run... problem: currently to send a message you'd have to: killall -SIG (authenticated process) [we have a shell script or alias do this] fg (unless someone knows a way to do this programatically, for the child only) provide the data for the message terminate the message ^Z (because the parent comes into the foreground along with the client when you fg) when what we want is: killall -SIG (authenticated process) [we have a shell script or alias do this] provide the data for the message terminate the message 3) we become the shell, pass along all unrecognized commands to a system() or `` not exactly elegant... jp -- Please take the time to answer the simple survey at: http://www.pthbb.org/cgi.bin/survey/ * __ * . \ | / . . . . . ((_ _____ . . . -- / \ -- . . . + . . _/\ oooooooooo. | * . . . * / ;M\_ . .oooooooooooo.oo. . . . . /\ . / :IMM\ ..oooooooooooo..oo. Jerrad Pierce /\ / \ / ;IIWMM ..oooooooooo....... 209 North Street + / \ / \ . / ;IIIIWM ...ooooooooo....... Randolph, MA 02368 / \ \ ___/ :;IIIIIWM ....ooo....o....... / \ \ / :: ;;IIIMI .....ooo......... http://www.pthbb.org / \ \ : :::;IIIM ..ooooooo.... __________________________ || || ::.....:::::: MOTD on Sweetmorn, the 50th of Confusion, in the YOLD 3165. Celebrate Confuflux!: "Here's what I know," said the physicist. "If we lived in a microscopic world, trucks would crash into walls, fly apart and then reassemble perfectly on the other side of the wall. This has been proven." From owner-jdev@jabber.org Thu Jul 15 16:34:01 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA21600 for jdev-list; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 16:34:01 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from localhost (jeremie@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA21597 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 16:33:59 -0500 Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 16:33:59 -0500 (CDT) From: Jeremie X-Sender: jeremie@mondo.eppg.com To: jdev@jabber.org Subject: Re: [JDEV] CLI-P In-Reply-To: <199907152013.QAA09938@calloway.mit.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org There is one more option similiar to your #1 that I've been working through for the JNIX proposal: A local background server listens on a configured port for incoming localhost connections. This background server simply performs connection caching per user, with a little overhead for maintaining status and buffering data. Whenever a command line app connects it must send the normal authentication packet before it can reuse it's connection, so the authentication packet is the key. I have a proposal mostly written up, and there are quite a few issues here, enough to make this an entire project in itself(hence: JNIX or Jabber+Unix). I'll create a team and set up a list to discuss these issues next week. Jer On Thu, 15 Jul 1999, Jerrad Pierce wrote: > so which provide an acceptable level of security? etc. > > 1) > a process authenticates itself to the jabber server > and then creates a named pipe somewhere in the user's home space (~/.jabber/) > (~/.jabber is mode 700 and the pipe 400) > > the message sender talks to the authenticated process through the named pipe > the authenticated process only sends the process if the uid of the sender > matches the uid of the user that spawned the authenticated process... > > 2) > the authentication process gets run in the background, on recepit of SIG > it forks a child, the child receives input and returns it and exits... > (since the parent is in the bg, the child will be too) > > advantage: the code only get's compiled the initial time it is run... > problem: currently to send a message you'd have to: > > killall -SIG (authenticated process) [we have a shell script or alias do this] > fg (unless someone knows a way to do this programatically, for the child only) > provide the data for the message > terminate the message > ^Z (because the parent comes into the foreground along with the client > when you fg) > > when what we want is: > killall -SIG (authenticated process) [we have a shell script or alias do this] > provide the data for the message > terminate the message > > 3) > we become the shell, pass along all unrecognized commands to a system() or `` > not exactly elegant... > > jp > -- > Please take the time to answer the simple survey at: > http://www.pthbb.org/cgi.bin/survey/ > * __ * . > \ | / . . . . . ((_ > _____ . . . > -- / \ -- . . . + . . _/\ > oooooooooo. | * . . . * / ;M\_ . > .oooooooooooo.oo. . . . . /\ . / :IMM\ > ..oooooooooooo..oo. Jerrad Pierce /\ / \ / ;IIWMM > ..oooooooooo....... 209 North Street + / \ / \ . / ;IIIIWM > ...ooooooooo....... Randolph, MA 02368 / \ \ ___/ :;IIIIIWM > ....ooo....o....... / \ \ / :: ;;IIIMI > .....ooo......... http://www.pthbb.org / \ \ : :::;IIIM > ..ooooooo.... __________________________ || || ::.....:::::: > MOTD on Sweetmorn, the 50th of Confusion, in the YOLD 3165. Celebrate Confuflux!: > > "Here's what I know," said the physicist. "If we lived in a microscopic world, trucks would crash into walls, fly apart and then reassemble perfectly on the other side of the wall. This has been proven." > From owner-jdev@jabber.org Fri Jul 16 12:59:51 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA26946 for jdev-list; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 12:59:51 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from mc-qout4.whowhere.com (mc-qout4.whowhere.com [209.185.123.18]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA26943 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 12:59:48 -0500 Received: from Unknown/Local ([?.?.?.?]) by my-deja.com; Fri Jul 16 09:59:12 1999 To: "Jabber Development" Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 09:59:12 -0700 From: "Thomas D. Charron" Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sent-Mail: off X-Expiredinmiddle: true X-Mailer: MailCity Service Subject: [JDEV] Re: Jabber Client Module.. X-Sender-Ip: 206.50.182.5 Organization: My Deja Email (http://www.my-deja.com:80) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org Actually, the one I sent you is broken.. Usually that happens when you send the wrong file.. ;-P Anyway, here's how I look at how the perl modules should be organized.. Net::JabberClient - Jabber client module used to connect to transports.. Net::JabberClient::Session - Jabber session module. This is be used on TOP of Net::JabberClient. This way, multiclients are VERY easy to write.. Just make a new Session from the JabberClient object. Net::JabberTransport - Same as JabberClient, but for transports.. Here's a good question that I didn't think of before writing the above.. Can you actually have a MultiTransport? --- Thomas Charron On Fri, 16 Jul 1999 12:41:35 Jeremie wrote: >Awesome! If you couldn't tell, that was the first perl module I've ever >written and the first OO perl I've ever done, I was mostly a perl4 guy :) > >I'm going to set up a CVS repository just for perl scripts and modules, >been working on the DB backend of the new server when it's running(waiting >for new motherboard). Next week hopefully this stuff will start coming >toghether, and I'll keep this around and throw it in. > >Fun fun! I wish I had time to play with it, *g* > >Jer > >On Fri, 16 Jul 1999, Thomas D. Charron wrote: > >> Here's what I did.. I took some of my hacks at it, and incorperated >> them into yours.. If you want to see the benifit of doing it my way, >> take a look at test2.pl, which, by the way, would be a good way to test >> routing between 2 jabber hosts.. ;-P >> >> Oh, and DON'T try to use SetCallBacks quite yet.. It doesn't work, >> and I'm not quite sure.. I think it has to do with passing a ref to a >> function to an objects own function.. Not sure yet.. >> >> >> --- >> Thomas Charron >> >> >> --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- >> Share what you know. Learn what you don't. > > --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- Share what you know. Learn what you don't. From owner-jdev@jabber.org Fri Jul 16 13:17:06 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA27091 for jdev-list; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 13:17:06 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from localhost (jeremie@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA27088 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 13:17:04 -0500 Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 13:17:04 -0500 (CDT) From: Jeremie X-Sender: jeremie@mondo.eppg.com To: Jabber Development Subject: Re: [JDEV] Re: Jabber Client Module.. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org > Net::JabberClient - Jabber client module used to connect to > transports.. > > Net::JabberClient::Session - Jabber session module. This is be used > on TOP of Net::JabberClient. This way, multiclients are VERY easy to > write.. Just make a new Session from the JabberClient object. Hmmm... Why the seperation? Shouldn't we be able to make just one module operate in both modes, where you can just create an object for each connection? Or am I misunderstanding something? > Net::JabberTransport - Same as JabberClient, but for transports.. Well, 90% of the work in the transport module is 100% etherx stuff and not directly related to Jabber at all. I had registered the Net::Etherx namespace with CPAN, and Jabber specific stuff could be in Net::Etherx::Jabber for transports. I had also registered Net::Jabber for the client stuff, since that is simple and goes along with the rest of the Net:: namespace(mostly clients for other protocols). > Here's a good question that I didn't think of before writing the > above.. Can you actually have a MultiTransport? Hmmm... technically, yes, but I can't think of a reason why, since you can use one transport to do just as much as multiple ones... Jer From owner-jdev@jabber.org Fri Jul 16 14:18:23 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA27488 for jdev-list; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 14:18:23 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from mc-qout4.whowhere.com (mc-qout4.whowhere.com [209.185.123.18]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA27485 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 14:18:20 -0500 Received: from Unknown/Local ([?.?.?.?]) by my-deja.com; Fri Jul 16 11:17:47 1999 To: jdev@jabber.org Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 11:17:47 -0700 From: "Thomas D. Charron" Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sent-Mail: off X-Mailer: MailCity Service Subject: Re: [JDEV] Re: Jabber Client Module.. X-Sender-Ip: 206.50.182.5 Organization: My Deja Email (http://www.my-deja.com:80) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org On Fri, 16 Jul 1999 13:17:04 Jeremie wrote: >> Net::JabberClient::Session - Jabber session module. This is be used >> on TOP of Net::JabberClient. This way, multiclients are VERY easy to >> write.. Just make a new Session from the JabberClient object. >Hmmm... Why the seperation? Shouldn't we be able to make just one module >operate in both modes, where you can just create an object for each >connection? Or am I misunderstanding something? A little of both? ;-P JabberClient will be used for both. JabberClient::Login would return a Session object, which would still be using JabberClient, but it'd be a nice attractive 'handle' to one particular user.. Aka, it's contain the login name, nick, status, etc, of that particular user. They are BOTH handled thru JabberConnection, but it could do something like this: $User_u = $Connection->Login("u", "p"); Then you could $User_u->SendMessage(to something about someone); $User_u->SetStatus("away"); It's just a handle to the data of what users are logged into the multiclient.. >> Net::JabberTransport - Same as JabberClient, but for transports.. >Well, 90% of the work in the transport module is 100% etherx stuff and not >directly related to Jabber at all. I had registered the Net::Etherx >namespace with CPAN, and Jabber specific stuff could be in >Net::Etherx::Jabber for transports. >I had also registered Net::Jabber for the client stuff, since that is >simple and goes along with the rest of the Net:: namespace(mostly clients >for other protocols). >Hmmm... technically, yes, but I can't think of a reason why, since you can >use one transport to do just as much as multiple ones... It could be a way to pass additional data. Let's look at the IRC transport. I could have ONE irc transport, but @undernet, @efnet, @slashnet, @someothernetthatsomeonedreamedup registered, and be able to get 'more data' by what transport it was destined to. I COULD merely have one trqansport for each net, but it would be nice if one transport could be registered under several 'names'.. --- Thomas Charron --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- Share what you know. Learn what you don't. From owner-jdev@jabber.org Mon Jul 19 13:43:31 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA12714 for jdev-list; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 13:43:31 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from mc-qout4.whowhere.com (mc-qout4.whowhere.com [209.185.123.18]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA12711 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 13:43:27 -0500 Received: from Unknown/Local ([?.?.?.?]) by my-deja.com; Mon Jul 19 10:42:50 1999 To: "Jabber Development" Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 10:42:50 -0700 From: "Thomas D. Charron" Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sent-Mail: off X-Mailer: MailCity Service Subject: [JDEV] jabbertransport quirk? X-Sender-Ip: 206.50.182.6 Organization: My Deja Email (http://www.my-deja.com:80) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org Could someone please validate for me that this happens? If you login TWICE to a transport (Aka, send two login messages), it would seem that jabbertransport gets ALL confused.. When I send this: uuHiGuy After logging in twice with the same username/password, jabbertransport does this: [Mon Jul 19 13:27:05 1999] lib "IO: waiting" [Mon Jul 19 13:27:05 1999] lib "new_data_from=127.0.0.1" [Mon Jul 19 13:27:05 1999] main "dispatch_data=uuHiGuy" [Mon Jul 19 13:27:05 1999] main "Processing Normally" [Mon Jul 19 13:27:05 1999] main "handling_normal_packet=127.0.0.1" [Mon Jul 19 13:27:05 1999] main "handle_message" [Mon Jul 19 13:27:05 1999] main "Invalid message, improper from or to" Now, I'm NOT condoning that that people SHOULD be logging in twice, but this could cause problems if a socket get's hung, and someone logs in a second time via a transport, but the first one hasn't disconnected yet for some reason.. --- Thomas Charron --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- Share what you know. Learn what you don't. From owner-jdev@jabber.org Tue Jul 20 11:02:43 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA18409 for jdev-list; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 11:02:43 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from web601.yahoomail.com (web2004.mail.yahoo.com [128.11.68.204]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA18406 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 11:02:40 -0500 Message-ID: <19990720150244.23088.rocketmail@web601.yahoomail.com> Received: from [207.8.1.21] by web2004.mail.yahoo.com; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 11:02:44 EDT Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 11:02:44 -0400 (EDT) From: Sean McCullough Subject: [JDEV] artwork/UI To: jdev@jabber.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org How would you feel about using a standard set of icons for things like users, groups, IMs across all graphical clients? I'm not suggesting they be required, but it would a) make implementing a new client easier and b) give Jabber a stronger identity for the non-programmer users. I know it's a client UI implementation issue and therefore out of the scope of the Jabber specs but like I said, it would just be a set of icons that implementors are free to use if they so desire. I don't know if AIM/YAHOO/ICQ would get their undergarments in a knot about Jabber clients ripping icons from their clients, but I personally don't think those UIs are worth ripping off. The Jabber team could come up with better ones. Another related issue is a logo. Gnome = foot, Linux = penguin, BSD = devil, Apache = feather - It's not just an issue for commercial products to address. What would a "Jabber Now" link button look like? ICQ's has that flower on it. I think the other buddy lists have them too. Sorry if the marketing questions make you ill. Now I need to go write some code, repent for my sins. -Sean McCullough _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From owner-jdev@jabber.org Tue Jul 20 11:47:16 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA18740 for jdev-list; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 11:47:16 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from hermes.ezwv.com (hermes.ezwv.com [208.163.10.16]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA18735 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 11:47:10 -0500 Received: from muar241 (MUAR241.MARSHALL.EDU [206.212.37.241]) by hermes.ezwv.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id LAA11049 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 11:42:43 -0400 Message-ID: <001d01bed2c7$1bf7c4a0$f125d4ce@marshall.edu> From: "Paul L. McNeely" To: References: <19990720150244.23088.rocketmail@web601.yahoomail.com> Subject: Re: [JDEV] artwork/UI Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 11:46:54 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org Actually Skins would be the best choice, Actually I have some images I create when I was toying around with the idea of a pager written in vb, I still have the code and everything, I cold donate it to the effort. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Paul L. McNeely (drderail@i.am) ICQ# 1305664 Web Page: http://i.am/drderail Voicemail: 1-888-TELEBOT Extension: 37337245 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- West Virginia Christian Chat Mailing List Sign up at onelist.com or E-mail me. Marshall University Chat Mailing List http://muchat.listbot.com -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- ----- Original Message ----- From: Sean McCullough To: Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 1999 11:02 AM Subject: [JDEV] artwork/UI How would you feel about using a standard set of icons for things like users, groups, IMs across all graphical clients? I'm not suggesting they be required, but it would a) make implementing a new client easier and b) give Jabber a stronger identity for the non-programmer users. I know it's a client UI implementation issue and therefore out of the scope of the Jabber specs but like I said, it would just be a set of icons that implementors are free to use if they so desire. I don't know if AIM/YAHOO/ICQ would get their undergarments in a knot about Jabber clients ripping icons from their clients, but I personally don't think those UIs are worth ripping off. The Jabber team could come up with better ones. Another related issue is a logo. Gnome = foot, Linux = penguin, BSD = devil, Apache = feather - It's not just an issue for commercial products to address. What would a "Jabber Now" link button look like? ICQ's has that flower on it. I think the other buddy lists have them too. Sorry if the marketing questions make you ill. Now I need to go write some code, repent for my sins. -Sean McCullough _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From owner-jdev@jabber.org Tue Jul 20 13:05:04 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA19160 for jdev-list; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 13:05:04 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from mail.wireweb.net (mail.wireweb.net [216.3.229.9]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA19149 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 13:04:54 -0500 Received: by mail.wireweb.net from localhost (router,SLMail V3.2); Tue, 20 Jul 1999 11:54:26 -0500 Received: by mail.wireweb.net from box5.net (216.3.228.114::mail daemon; unverified,SLMail V3.2); Tue, 20 Jul 1999 11:54:25 -0500 Message-ID: <3794AC7C.78C59F04@box5.net> Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 12:06:04 -0500 From: Temas X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.5-15 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: jdev@jabber.org Subject: Re: [JDEV] artwork/UI References: <19990720150244.23088.rocketmail@web601.yahoomail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SLUIDL: CF27524A-3DF711D3-BB340040-33537EE5 Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org DO NOT USE AIM LOGOS. They will get their undergarments in a not =) I have experienced this personally and talked to others who have experienced it. That's just my word to the wise. Drawing our own icons and logos is by far the best option. Unfortunately they really should have very little simblance to the original icons or else people start going crazy. It's a sad sad world we live in that we can't support these other products in such a way, but it's the truth. As for a link to button jabber has always made me think of the twizzlers mouth. That's my $0.02 on a jabber logo. --Thomas Muldowney Sean McCullough wrote: > > How would you feel about using a standard set of icons > for things like users, groups, IMs across all graphical clients? I'm > not suggesting they be required, but it > would a) make implementing a new client easier and b) > give Jabber a stronger identity for the non-programmer users. I know > it's a client UI implementation issue and therefore out of the scope of > the Jabber specs but > like I said, it would just be a set of icons that implementors are free > to use if they so desire. > > I don't know if AIM/YAHOO/ICQ would get their undergarments in a knot > about Jabber clients ripping > icons from their clients, but I personally don't think > those UIs are worth ripping off. The Jabber team could come up with > better ones. > > Another related issue is a logo. Gnome = foot, Linux = penguin, BSD = > devil, Apache = feather - It's not just an issue for commercial > products to address. What would a "Jabber Now" link button look like? > ICQ's has that flower on it. I think the other buddy lists have them > too. > > Sorry if the marketing questions make you ill. Now I need to go write > some code, repent for my sins. > > -Sean McCullough > _________________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From owner-jdev@jabber.org Tue Jul 20 13:18:46 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA19304 for jdev-list; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 13:18:46 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from exchange3.spu.edu (exchange3.spu.edu [192.190.33.112]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA19301 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 13:18:44 -0500 Received: by exchange3.spu.edu with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 10:18:48 -0700 Message-ID: From: "Mansell, Brian" To: "'jdev@jabber.org'" Subject: RE: [JDEV] artwork/UI Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 10:18:52 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org I guess all I ask is that you don't infringe upon the icons BeOS has. Many third party (shareware/freeware) programmers have used these icons illegally without any regard. You may consider a Microphone w/ stand as an icon.. but that may signify more of a iphone client brian e. mansell CIS Help Desk - Seattle Pacific University E-Mail - bmansell@spu.edu HomePage - http://www.spu.edu/~bmansell/ Office |206| 281-2982 Personal Fax |603|452-7014 Seattle, Washington 98119 USA, Earth -----Original Message----- From: Sean McCullough [mailto:banksean@yahoo.com] Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 1999 8:03 AM To: jdev@jabber.org Subject: [JDEV] artwork/UI How would you feel about using a standard set of icons for things like users, groups, IMs across all graphical clients? I'm not suggesting they be required, but it would a) make implementing a new client easier and b) give Jabber a stronger identity for the non-programmer users. I know it's a client UI implementation issue and therefore out of the scope of the Jabber specs but like I said, it would just be a set of icons that implementors are free to use if they so desire. I don't know if AIM/YAHOO/ICQ would get their undergarments in a knot about Jabber clients ripping icons from their clients, but I personally don't think those UIs are worth ripping off. The Jabber team could come up with better ones. Another related issue is a logo. Gnome = foot, Linux = penguin, BSD = devil, Apache = feather - It's not just an issue for commercial products to address. What would a "Jabber Now" link button look like? ICQ's has that flower on it. I think the other buddy lists have them too. Sorry if the marketing questions make you ill. Now I need to go write some code, repent for my sins. -Sean McCullough _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From owner-jdev@jabber.org Tue Jul 20 13:34:58 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA19557 for jdev-list; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 13:34:58 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from exchange3.spu.edu (exchange3.spu.edu [192.190.33.112]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA19553 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 13:34:55 -0500 Received: by exchange3.spu.edu with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 10:35:04 -0700 Message-ID: From: "Mansell, Brian" To: "'jdev@jabber.org'" Subject: RE: [JDEV] artwork/UI Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 10:35:09 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org I don't know if skins would be the best idea for an initial release. Certainly it loses it's standard uniformity by doing skins in any alpha releases. brian e. mansell CIS Help Desk - Seattle Pacific University E-Mail - bmansell@spu.edu HomePage - http://www.spu.edu/~bmansell/ Office |206| 281-2982 Personal Fax |603|452-7014 Seattle, Washington 98119 USA, Earth -----Original Message----- From: Paul L. McNeely [mailto:drderail@i.am] Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 1999 8:47 AM To: jdev@jabber.org Subject: Re: [JDEV] artwork/UI Actually Skins would be the best choice, Actually I have some images I create when I was toying around with the idea of a pager written in vb, I still have the code and everything, I cold donate it to the effort. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Paul L. McNeely (drderail@i.am) ICQ# 1305664 Web Page: http://i.am/drderail Voicemail: 1-888-TELEBOT Extension: 37337245 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- West Virginia Christian Chat Mailing List Sign up at onelist.com or E-mail me. Marshall University Chat Mailing List http://muchat.listbot.com -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- ----- Original Message ----- From: Sean McCullough To: Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 1999 11:02 AM Subject: [JDEV] artwork/UI How would you feel about using a standard set of icons for things like users, groups, IMs across all graphical clients? I'm not suggesting they be required, but it would a) make implementing a new client easier and b) give Jabber a stronger identity for the non-programmer users. I know it's a client UI implementation issue and therefore out of the scope of the Jabber specs but like I said, it would just be a set of icons that implementors are free to use if they so desire. I don't know if AIM/YAHOO/ICQ would get their undergarments in a knot about Jabber clients ripping icons from their clients, but I personally don't think those UIs are worth ripping off. The Jabber team could come up with better ones. Another related issue is a logo. Gnome = foot, Linux = penguin, BSD = devil, Apache = feather - It's not just an issue for commercial products to address. What would a "Jabber Now" link button look like? ICQ's has that flower on it. I think the other buddy lists have them too. Sorry if the marketing questions make you ill. Now I need to go write some code, repent for my sins. -Sean McCullough _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From owner-jdev@jabber.org Tue Jul 20 13:41:21 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA19614 for jdev-list; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 13:41:21 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from mc-qout4.whowhere.com (mc-qout4.whowhere.com [209.185.123.18]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA19611 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 13:41:18 -0500 Received: from Unknown/Local ([?.?.?.?]) by my-deja.com; Tue Jul 20 10:40:34 1999 To: jdev@jabber.org Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 10:40:34 -0700 From: "Thomas D. Charron" Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sent-Mail: off X-Mailer: MailCity Service Subject: Re: [JDEV] artwork/UI X-Sender-Ip: 206.50.182.6 Organization: My Deja Email (http://www.my-deja.com:80) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org I DO like the Logo statement, but I think we need to have a working system that can be used for a minumal depoyment before a logo.. I would also support the idea of a way to store icons on server, and allow them to be transfered between clients.. Aka, when I'm in a browser client, I have the SAME icons, but that capability is a bit of a ways away.. --- Thomas Charron On Tue, 20 Jul 1999 11:02:44 Sean McCullough wrote: >How would you feel about using a standard set of icons >for things like users, groups, IMs across all graphical clients? I'm >not suggesting they be required, but it >would a) make implementing a new client easier and b) >give Jabber a stronger identity for the non-programmer users. I know >it's a client UI implementation issue and therefore out of the scope of >the Jabber specs but >like I said, it would just be a set of icons that implementors are free >to use if they so desire. > >I don't know if AIM/YAHOO/ICQ would get their undergarments in a knot >about Jabber clients ripping >icons from their clients, but I personally don't think >those UIs are worth ripping off. The Jabber team could come up with >better ones. > >Another related issue is a logo. Gnome = foot, Linux = penguin, BSD = >devil, Apache = feather - It's not just an issue for commercial >products to address. What would a "Jabber Now" link button look like? >ICQ's has that flower on it. I think the other buddy lists have them >too. > >Sorry if the marketing questions make you ill. Now I need to go write >some code, repent for my sins. > >-Sean McCullough >_________________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com > > --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- Share what you know. Learn what you don't. From owner-jdev@jabber.org Tue Jul 20 14:18:57 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA19963 for jdev-list; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 14:18:57 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from exchange3.spu.edu (exchange3.spu.edu [192.190.33.112]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA19960 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 14:18:54 -0500 Received: by exchange3.spu.edu with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 11:18:59 -0700 Message-ID: From: "Mansell, Brian" To: "'jdev@jabber.org'" Subject: RE: [JDEV] artwork/UI Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 11:19:04 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org I think it may create a bog on the bandwidth by keeping icons on the server. With every 'client update' that will slow it down quite a bit... especially if jabber ends up becoming highly popular (2000+ simultaneous connections). brian e. mansell CIS Help Desk - Seattle Pacific University E-Mail - bmansell@spu.edu HomePage - http://www.spu.edu/~bmansell/ Office |206| 281-2982 Personal Fax |603|452-7014 Seattle, Washington 98119 USA, Earth -----Original Message----- From: Thomas D. Charron [mailto:tcharron@my-deja.com] Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 1999 10:41 AM To: jdev@jabber.org Subject: Re: [JDEV] artwork/UI I DO like the Logo statement, but I think we need to have a working system that can be used for a minumal depoyment before a logo.. I would also support the idea of a way to store icons on server, and allow them to be transfered between clients.. Aka, when I'm in a browser client, I have the SAME icons, but that capability is a bit of a ways away.. --- Thomas Charron On Tue, 20 Jul 1999 11:02:44 Sean McCullough wrote: >How would you feel about using a standard set of icons >for things like users, groups, IMs across all graphical clients? I'm >not suggesting they be required, but it >would a) make implementing a new client easier and b) >give Jabber a stronger identity for the non-programmer users. I know >it's a client UI implementation issue and therefore out of the scope of >the Jabber specs but >like I said, it would just be a set of icons that implementors are free >to use if they so desire. > >I don't know if AIM/YAHOO/ICQ would get their undergarments in a knot >about Jabber clients ripping >icons from their clients, but I personally don't think >those UIs are worth ripping off. The Jabber team could come up with >better ones. > >Another related issue is a logo. Gnome = foot, Linux = penguin, BSD = >devil, Apache = feather - It's not just an issue for commercial >products to address. What would a "Jabber Now" link button look like? >ICQ's has that flower on it. I think the other buddy lists have them >too. > >Sorry if the marketing questions make you ill. Now I need to go write >some code, repent for my sins. > >-Sean McCullough >_________________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com > > --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- Share what you know. Learn what you don't. From owner-jdev@jabber.org Tue Jul 20 14:37:19 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA20061 for jdev-list; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 14:37:19 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from ins20.netins.net (ins20.netins.net [167.142.225.20]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA20058 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 14:37:14 -0500 Received: from worf.netins.net (gandalf@worf.netins.net [167.142.225.4]) by ins20.netins.net (8.9.3/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA06062 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 13:37:14 -0500 (CDT) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 13:37:15 -0500 (CDT) From: Seth Hartbecke To: jdev@jabber.org Subject: Re: [JDEV] artwork/UI In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org I think that we (actually you jabber developers) should attempt to decide on a standard icon (logo, whatever). I am currently attempting to write a client and it would be really helpful if there was a logo that I could start with. For those of you interested, I am attempting to write a KDE client. But those of you who know me also know that I have been trying to write one for about a year now. If anybody else is trying to write a KDE client keep writing, chances are I will get frustrated by thursday and find something else to do with my computer. On Tue, 20 Jul 1999, Thomas D. Charron wrote: > I DO like the Logo statement, but I think we need to have a working system that can be used for a minumal depoyment before a logo.. > > I would also support the idea of a way to store icons on server, and allow them to be transfered between clients.. Aka, when I'm in a browser client, I have the SAME icons, but that capability is a bit of a ways away.. > --- > Thomas Charron > > On Tue, 20 Jul 1999 11:02:44 Sean McCullough wrote: > >How would you feel about using a standard set of icons > >for things like users, groups, IMs across all graphical clients? I'm > >not suggesting they be required, but it > >would a) make implementing a new client easier and b) > >give Jabber a stronger identity for the non-programmer users. I know > >it's a client UI implementation issue and therefore out of the scope of > >the Jabber specs but > >like I said, it would just be a set of icons that implementors are free > >to use if they so desire. > > > >I don't know if AIM/YAHOO/ICQ would get their undergarments in a knot > >about Jabber clients ripping > >icons from their clients, but I personally don't think > >those UIs are worth ripping off. The Jabber team could come up with > >better ones. > > > >Another related issue is a logo. Gnome = foot, Linux = penguin, BSD = > >devil, Apache = feather - It's not just an issue for commercial > >products to address. What would a "Jabber Now" link button look like? > >ICQ's has that flower on it. I think the other buddy lists have them > >too. > > > >Sorry if the marketing questions make you ill. Now I need to go write > >some code, repent for my sins. > > > >-Sean McCullough > >_________________________________________________________ > >Do You Yahoo!? > >Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com > > > > > > > --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- > Share what you know. Learn what you don't. > From owner-jdev@jabber.org Tue Jul 20 14:45:29 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA20129 for jdev-list; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 14:45:29 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from hermes.ezwv.com (hermes.ezwv.com [208.163.10.16]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA20126 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 14:45:26 -0500 Received: from muar241 (MUAR241.MARSHALL.EDU [206.212.37.241]) by hermes.ezwv.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id OAA28599 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 14:41:03 -0400 Message-ID: <004701bed2e0$064efe20$f125d4ce@marshall.edu> From: "Paul L. McNeely" To: References: Subject: Re: [JDEV] artwork/UI Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 14:45:20 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org well, the idea would be to have the 'default' skin, perhaps not allow the ability to add more just yet or whatever then as it goes incorporate the ability in, but with that you have the problme that somone might try to edit the defaults. If you allowed skins from the get go you have the ability to gear clients more to the skins ahead of time, Incorporating skins later sometimes causes problems and version conflicts in skins when you update the client. Winamp had this problem in a few versions. If you were able to have the visual inteface to be dynamic and be based off the skinn file you can have interfaces that look totally different from one another yet still have the core code behind it. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Paul L. McNeely (drderail@i.am) ICQ# 1305664 Web Page: http://i.am/drderail Voicemail: 1-888-TELEBOT Extension: 37337245 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- West Virginia Christian Chat Mailing List Sign up at onelist.com or E-mail me. Marshall University Chat Mailing List http://muchat.listbot.com -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- ----- Original Message ----- From: Mansell, Brian To: Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 1999 1:35 PM Subject: RE: [JDEV] artwork/UI I don't know if skins would be the best idea for an initial release. Certainly it loses it's standard uniformity by doing skins in any alpha releases. brian e. mansell CIS Help Desk - Seattle Pacific University E-Mail - bmansell@spu.edu HomePage - http://www.spu.edu/~bmansell/ Office |206| 281-2982 Personal Fax |603|452-7014 Seattle, Washington 98119 USA, Earth -----Original Message----- From: Paul L. McNeely [mailto:drderail@i.am] Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 1999 8:47 AM To: jdev@jabber.org Subject: Re: [JDEV] artwork/UI Actually Skins would be the best choice, Actually I have some images I create when I was toying around with the idea of a pager written in vb, I still have the code and everything, I cold donate it to the effort. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Paul L. McNeely (drderail@i.am) ICQ# 1305664 Web Page: http://i.am/drderail Voicemail: 1-888-TELEBOT Extension: 37337245 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- West Virginia Christian Chat Mailing List Sign up at onelist.com or E-mail me. Marshall University Chat Mailing List http://muchat.listbot.com -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- ----- Original Message ----- From: Sean McCullough To: Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 1999 11:02 AM Subject: [JDEV] artwork/UI How would you feel about using a standard set of icons for things like users, groups, IMs across all graphical clients? I'm not suggesting they be required, but it would a) make implementing a new client easier and b) give Jabber a stronger identity for the non-programmer users. I know it's a client UI implementation issue and therefore out of the scope of the Jabber specs but like I said, it would just be a set of icons that implementors are free to use if they so desire. I don't know if AIM/YAHOO/ICQ would get their undergarments in a knot about Jabber clients ripping icons from their clients, but I personally don't think those UIs are worth ripping off. The Jabber team could come up with better ones. Another related issue is a logo. Gnome = foot, Linux = penguin, BSD = devil, Apache = feather - It's not just an issue for commercial products to address. What would a "Jabber Now" link button look like? ICQ's has that flower on it. I think the other buddy lists have them too. Sorry if the marketing questions make you ill. Now I need to go write some code, repent for my sins. -Sean McCullough _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From owner-jdev@jabber.org Tue Jul 20 15:54:15 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA20718 for jdev-list; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 15:54:15 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from exchange3.spu.edu (exchange3.spu.edu [192.190.33.112]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA20715 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 15:54:13 -0500 Received: by exchange3.spu.edu with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 12:54:21 -0700 Message-ID: From: "Mansell, Brian" To: "'jdev@jabber.org'" Subject: RE: [JDEV] artwork/UI Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 12:54:25 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org I don't know if any of you are familiar of Odigo, the new Israel-based instant messenger client. But I think we all can learn mistakes/advantages of its interface. It incorporates a lot of aspects of icq and vrealms. I encourage you all to try out their beta version at www.odigo.com ... brian e. mansell CIS Help Desk - Seattle Pacific University E-Mail - bmansell@spu.edu HomePage - http://www.spu.edu/~bmansell/ Office |206| 281-2982 Personal Fax |603|452-7014 Seattle, Washington 98119 USA, Earth -----Original Message----- From: Paul L. McNeely [mailto:drderail@i.am] Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 1999 11:45 AM To: jdev@jabber.org Subject: Re: [JDEV] artwork/UI well, the idea would be to have the 'default' skin, perhaps not allow the ability to add more just yet or whatever then as it goes incorporate the ability in, but with that you have the problme that somone might try to edit the defaults. If you allowed skins from the get go you have the ability to gear clients more to the skins ahead of time, Incorporating skins later sometimes causes problems and version conflicts in skins when you update the client. Winamp had this problem in a few versions. If you were able to have the visual inteface to be dynamic and be based off the skinn file you can have interfaces that look totally different from one another yet still have the core code behind it. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Paul L. McNeely (drderail@i.am) ICQ# 1305664 Web Page: http://i.am/drderail Voicemail: 1-888-TELEBOT Extension: 37337245 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- West Virginia Christian Chat Mailing List Sign up at onelist.com or E-mail me. Marshall University Chat Mailing List http://muchat.listbot.com -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- ----- Original Message ----- From: Mansell, Brian To: Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 1999 1:35 PM Subject: RE: [JDEV] artwork/UI I don't know if skins would be the best idea for an initial release. Certainly it loses it's standard uniformity by doing skins in any alpha releases. brian e. mansell CIS Help Desk - Seattle Pacific University E-Mail - bmansell@spu.edu HomePage - http://www.spu.edu/~bmansell/ Office |206| 281-2982 Personal Fax |603|452-7014 Seattle, Washington 98119 USA, Earth -----Original Message----- From: Paul L. McNeely [mailto:drderail@i.am] Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 1999 8:47 AM To: jdev@jabber.org Subject: Re: [JDEV] artwork/UI Actually Skins would be the best choice, Actually I have some images I create when I was toying around with the idea of a pager written in vb, I still have the code and everything, I cold donate it to the effort. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Paul L. McNeely (drderail@i.am) ICQ# 1305664 Web Page: http://i.am/drderail Voicemail: 1-888-TELEBOT Extension: 37337245 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- West Virginia Christian Chat Mailing List Sign up at onelist.com or E-mail me. Marshall University Chat Mailing List http://muchat.listbot.com -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- ----- Original Message ----- From: Sean McCullough To: Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 1999 11:02 AM Subject: [JDEV] artwork/UI How would you feel about using a standard set of icons for things like users, groups, IMs across all graphical clients? I'm not suggesting they be required, but it would a) make implementing a new client easier and b) give Jabber a stronger identity for the non-programmer users. I know it's a client UI implementation issue and therefore out of the scope of the Jabber specs but like I said, it would just be a set of icons that implementors are free to use if they so desire. I don't know if AIM/YAHOO/ICQ would get their undergarments in a knot about Jabber clients ripping icons from their clients, but I personally don't think those UIs are worth ripping off. The Jabber team could come up with better ones. Another related issue is a logo. Gnome = foot, Linux = penguin, BSD = devil, Apache = feather - It's not just an issue for commercial products to address. What would a "Jabber Now" link button look like? ICQ's has that flower on it. I think the other buddy lists have them too. Sorry if the marketing questions make you ill. Now I need to go write some code, repent for my sins. -Sean McCullough _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From owner-jdev@jabber.org Tue Jul 20 15:59:23 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA20749 for jdev-list; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 15:59:23 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from mc-qout4.whowhere.com (mc-qout4.whowhere.com [209.185.123.18]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA20746 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 15:59:21 -0500 Received: from Unknown/Local ([?.?.?.?]) by my-deja.com; Tue Jul 20 12:59:14 1999 To: jdev@jabber.org Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 12:59:14 -0700 From: "Thomas D. Charron" Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sent-Mail: off X-Mailer: MailCity Service Subject: RE: [JDEV] artwork/UI X-Sender-Ip: 206.50.182.6 Organization: My Deja Email (http://www.my-deja.com:80) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org Not really.. For example, this is an XPM of an open book: my @book_open_xpm = ( "16 16 4 1", " c None s None", ". c black", "X c #808080", "o c white", " ", " .. ", " .Xo. ... ", " .Xoo. ..oo. ", " .Xooo.Xooo... ", " .Xooo.oooo.X. ", " .Xooo.Xooo.X. ", " .Xooo.oooo.X. ", " .Xooo.Xooo.X. ", " .Xooo.oooo.X. ", " .Xoo.Xoo..X. ", " .Xo.o..ooX. ", " .X..XXXXX. ", " ..X....... ", " .. ", " "); You'd only need like 5 icons max, and they would only be downloaded as requested (Aka, NOT ever time, only when needed, once per client, really). Icons are not more then 256 bytes, really, so 5 = little more then 1k, it would take ALL 2000 client requesting all 5 icons to saturate a T1 line for a second and a half.. ;-P Normal usage, lesse 100 users simo login and request, leading to 200k in bandwidth for a moment.. Anyway, I digress.. The point I'm making is it would NOT be as bad as you would think.. ;-P --- Thomas Charron On Tue, 20 Jul 1999 11:19:04 Mansell, Brian wrote: >I think it may create a bog on the bandwidth by keeping icons on the server. >With every 'client update' that will slow it down quite a bit... especially >if jabber ends up becoming highly popular (2000+ simultaneous connections). > >brian e. mansell >CIS Help Desk - Seattle Pacific University >E-Mail - bmansell@spu.edu >HomePage - http://www.spu.edu/~bmansell/ >Office |206| 281-2982 Personal Fax |603|452-7014 >Seattle, Washington 98119 USA, Earth > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Thomas D. Charron [mailto:tcharron@my-deja.com] >Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 1999 10:41 AM >To: jdev@jabber.org >Subject: Re: [JDEV] artwork/UI > > > I DO like the Logo statement, but I think we need to have a working system >that can be used for a minumal depoyment before a logo.. > > I would also support the idea of a way to store icons on server, and allow >them to be transfered between clients.. Aka, when I'm in a browser client, >I have the SAME icons, but that capability is a bit of a ways away.. >--- >Thomas Charron > >On Tue, 20 Jul 1999 11:02:44 Sean McCullough wrote: >>How would you feel about using a standard set of icons >>for things like users, groups, IMs across all graphical clients? I'm >>not suggesting they be required, but it >>would a) make implementing a new client easier and b) >>give Jabber a stronger identity for the non-programmer users. I know >>it's a client UI implementation issue and therefore out of the scope of >>the Jabber specs but >>like I said, it would just be a set of icons that implementors are free >>to use if they so desire. >> >>I don't know if AIM/YAHOO/ICQ would get their undergarments in a knot >>about Jabber clients ripping >>icons from their clients, but I personally don't think >>those UIs are worth ripping off. The Jabber team could come up with >>better ones. >> >>Another related issue is a logo. Gnome = foot, Linux = penguin, BSD = >>devil, Apache = feather - It's not just an issue for commercial >>products to address. What would a "Jabber Now" link button look like? >>ICQ's has that flower on it. I think the other buddy lists have them >>too. >> >>Sorry if the marketing questions make you ill. Now I need to go write >>some code, repent for my sins. >> >>-Sean McCullough >>_________________________________________________________ >>Do You Yahoo!? >>Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com >> >> > > >--== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- >Share what you know. Learn what you don't. > --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- Share what you know. Learn what you don't. From owner-jdev@jabber.org Tue Jul 20 17:17:16 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA21306 for jdev-list; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 17:17:16 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from exchange3.spu.edu (exchange3.spu.edu [192.190.33.112]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA21303 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 17:17:13 -0500 Received: by exchange3.spu.edu with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 14:17:22 -0700 Message-ID: From: "Mansell, Brian" To: "'jdev@jabber.org'" Subject: RE: [JDEV] artwork/UI Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 14:17:27 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org You're right... I thought of it on the basis of having 40k/ a piece jpgs being transfered.. of course that would be unrealistic. Yeah, certainly the smaller image size would work. Also it can be used to implement a banner advertising system... (SORRY I HAD TO MENTION IT!) heh... brian e. mansell CIS Help Desk - Seattle Pacific University E-Mail - bmansell@spu.edu HomePage - http://www.spu.edu/~bmansell/ Office |206| 281-2982 Personal Fax |603|452-7014 Seattle, Washington 98119 USA, Earth -----Original Message----- From: Thomas D. Charron [mailto:tcharron@my-deja.com] Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 1999 12:59 PM To: jdev@jabber.org Subject: RE: [JDEV] artwork/UI Not really.. For example, this is an XPM of an open book: my @book_open_xpm = ( "16 16 4 1", " c None s None", ". c black", "X c #808080", "o c white", " ", " .. ", " .Xo. ... ", " .Xoo. ..oo. ", " .Xooo.Xooo... ", " .Xooo.oooo.X. ", " .Xooo.Xooo.X. ", " .Xooo.oooo.X. ", " .Xooo.Xooo.X. ", " .Xooo.oooo.X. ", " .Xoo.Xoo..X. ", " .Xo.o..ooX. ", " .X..XXXXX. ", " ..X....... ", " .. ", " "); You'd only need like 5 icons max, and they would only be downloaded as requested (Aka, NOT ever time, only when needed, once per client, really). Icons are not more then 256 bytes, really, so 5 = little more then 1k, it would take ALL 2000 client requesting all 5 icons to saturate a T1 line for a second and a half.. ;-P Normal usage, lesse 100 users simo login and request, leading to 200k in bandwidth for a moment.. Anyway, I digress.. The point I'm making is it would NOT be as bad as you would think.. ;-P --- Thomas Charron On Tue, 20 Jul 1999 11:19:04 Mansell, Brian wrote: >I think it may create a bog on the bandwidth by keeping icons on the server. >With every 'client update' that will slow it down quite a bit... especially >if jabber ends up becoming highly popular (2000+ simultaneous connections). > >brian e. mansell >CIS Help Desk - Seattle Pacific University >E-Mail - bmansell@spu.edu >HomePage - http://www.spu.edu/~bmansell/ >Office |206| 281-2982 Personal Fax |603|452-7014 >Seattle, Washington 98119 USA, Earth > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Thomas D. Charron [mailto:tcharron@my-deja.com] >Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 1999 10:41 AM >To: jdev@jabber.org >Subject: Re: [JDEV] artwork/UI > > > I DO like the Logo statement, but I think we need to have a working system >that can be used for a minumal depoyment before a logo.. > > I would also support the idea of a way to store icons on server, and allow >them to be transfered between clients.. Aka, when I'm in a browser client, >I have the SAME icons, but that capability is a bit of a ways away.. >--- >Thomas Charron > >On Tue, 20 Jul 1999 11:02:44 Sean McCullough wrote: >>How would you feel about using a standard set of icons >>for things like users, groups, IMs across all graphical clients? I'm >>not suggesting they be required, but it >>would a) make implementing a new client easier and b) >>give Jabber a stronger identity for the non-programmer users. I know >>it's a client UI implementation issue and therefore out of the scope of >>the Jabber specs but >>like I said, it would just be a set of icons that implementors are free >>to use if they so desire. >> >>I don't know if AIM/YAHOO/ICQ would get their undergarments in a knot >>about Jabber clients ripping >>icons from their clients, but I personally don't think >>those UIs are worth ripping off. The Jabber team could come up with >>better ones. >> >>Another related issue is a logo. Gnome = foot, Linux = penguin, BSD = >>devil, Apache = feather - It's not just an issue for commercial >>products to address. What would a "Jabber Now" link button look like? >>ICQ's has that flower on it. I think the other buddy lists have them >>too. >> >>Sorry if the marketing questions make you ill. Now I need to go write >>some code, repent for my sins. >> >>-Sean McCullough >>_________________________________________________________ >>Do You Yahoo!? >>Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com >> >> > > >--== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- >Share what you know. Learn what you don't. > --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- Share what you know. Learn what you don't. From owner-jdev@jabber.org Tue Jul 20 18:25:15 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA21685 for jdev-list; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 18:25:15 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from babble.cob.ohio-state.edu (babble.cob.ohio-state.edu [164.107.201.33]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA21682 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 18:25:12 -0500 Received: from galtgulch (dyn11-43.trilogy.com [149.74.11.43]) by babble.cob.ohio-state.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id SAA02137 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 18:25:06 -0400 (EDT) From: "Corbett J. Klempay" To: Subject: RE: [JDEV] artwork/UI Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 05:23:23 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <19990720150244.23088.rocketmail@web601.yahoomail.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org > > How would you feel about using a standard set of icons > for things like users, groups, IMs across all graphical clients? I'm > not suggesting they be required, but it > would a) make implementing a new client easier and b) > give Jabber a stronger identity for the non-programmer users. I know > it's a client UI implementation issue and therefore out of the scope of > the Jabber specs but > like I said, it would just be a set of icons that implementors are free > to use if they so desire. This is a very important suggestion that you're making. I know (from your comments below) that you're worried of sounding like a marketing guy, but branding is really a legitmate concern. If we want Jabber to become widely adopted, it must be pretty (I know that functionality and quality are the most important things, but as evil as it sounds, a slick interface is HUGE...the droves of AOL-using moms aren't going to care that it is a technically superior engine). In the same way that anyone seeing the little flower knows it's ICQ, we must have the same thing going for us... > > I don't know if AIM/YAHOO/ICQ would get their undergarments in a knot > about Jabber clients ripping > icons from their clients, but I personally don't think > those UIs are worth ripping off. The Jabber team could come up with > better ones. I don't know either...I would avoid risking it. I think the only graphical reference we have to them is maybe an icon (or set) to indicate communication with an AIM/YAHOO/ICQ client. > > Another related issue is a logo. Gnome = foot, Linux = penguin, BSD = > devil, Apache = feather - It's not just an issue for commercial > products to address. What would a "Jabber Now" link button look like? > ICQ's has that flower on it. I think the other buddy lists have them > too. Yes, definitely...I'm trying to think though...what comes to mind when you think of the word 'Jabber' (I think of a mouth kind of like the Rolling Stones logo :)...but it needs to simultaneously be slick, non-tacky, and classic looking all at once. Any artists in the group? Corbett J. Klempay http://www.acm.jhu.edu/~cklempay From owner-jdev@jabber.org Tue Jul 20 21:10:42 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA22476 for jdev-list; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 21:10:42 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from geneva.vmware.com (geneva.vmware.com [205.178.44.3]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA22473 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 21:10:39 -0500 Received: from cornell.edu (vm-dhcp-16 [205.178.44.147]) by geneva.vmware.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA24775 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 18:10:39 -0700 Message-ID: <37951DD1.19A9E98C@cornell.edu> Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 18:09:38 -0700 From: "c. chris erway" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: jdev@jabber.org Subject: Re: [JDEV] WinCVS References: <002d01becc8d$75796e60$f125d4ce@marshall.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org cvs and WinCVS works fine for me. i was originally just using the command-line cvs win32 port (same options as unix CVS!) but i just got WinCVS, mostly because of your post here ... wincvs sucks! :> but anyhow, just specify your CVSROOT to be :pserver:anoncvs@jabber.org:/cvs and the auth method to be cvs's remote passwd file. then you just do a "cvs login" and your password is "anoncvs". "cvs co jabber" is command-line shorthand for "cvs checkout jabber", which should get you your own copy of the source tree. i only used winCVS for a few minutes and couldn't figure out how to checkout a module from a server, so just click on "command line..." and type "cvs checkout jabber" to get a new tree. you only checkout ONCE; after that, you do "cvs update" or click the update button once you've navigated into a directory you'd like to update. "Paul L. McNeely" wrote: > > Did you have any luck with it? > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > Paul L. McNeely (drderail@i.am) ICQ# 1305664 > Web Page: http://i.am/drderail > Voicemail: 1-888-TELEBOT Extension: 37337245 > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > West Virginia Christian Chat Mailing List > Sign up at onelist.com or E-mail me. > Marshall University Chat Mailing List > http://muchat.listbot.com > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Thomas D. Charron > To: > Sent: Saturday, July 10, 1999 11:33 AM > Subject: Re: [JDEV] WinCVS > > I will test it out tonight.. If you have a JVM installed, I've used the > Java CVS client with much success under Win32.. > --- > Thomas Charron > > On Fri, 9 Jul 1999 22:37:56 Paul L. McNeely wrote: > >If Anyone has been able to access the CVS server from WinCVS please let me > >know I need yo know what I'm doing wrong. > >-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > >Paul L. McNeely (drderail@i.am) ICQ# 1305664 > >Web Page: http://i.am/drderail > >Voicemail: 1-888-TELEBOT Extension: 37337245 > >-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > > West Virginia Christian Chat Mailing List > > Sign up at onelist.com or E-mail me. > > Marshall University Chat Mailing List > > http://muchat.listbot.com > >-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > > > > > > > > --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- > Share what you know. Learn what you don't. -- .g$$g, c. chris erway .g$$g, cce3@cornell.edu $$$$$$ cornell university $$$$$$ class of 2002, a&s (undeclared) `S$$S' `S$$S' From owner-jdev@jabber.org Tue Jul 20 22:52:31 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA22927 for jdev-list; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 22:52:31 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from hermes.ezwv.com (hermes.ezwv.com [208.163.10.16]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA22923 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 22:52:28 -0500 Received: from muar241 (ip156049.dlup.hunt.ezwv.com [208.168.156.49]) by hermes.ezwv.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id WAA02847 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 22:47:53 -0400 Message-ID: <001901bed324$0d65a080$319ca8d0@marshall.edu> From: "Paul L. McNeely" To: References: <002d01becc8d$75796e60$f125d4ce@marshall.edu> <37951DD1.19A9E98C@cornell.edu> Subject: Re: [JDEV] WinCVS Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 22:52:07 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org Thanks a lot, turns out that I had it right I just hadn't relized that it was working. This is my first time using CVS so when I saw the message saing it exited I though maybe it was temrinating the connection so I'd just give up. I also got the checkout to work, its under the admin menu once you log in, I just clicked on the directory to dump it to then typed in jabber as the module name and its dumping stuff into that directory. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Paul L. McNeely (drderail@i.am) ICQ# 1305664 Web Page: http://i.am/drderail Voicemail: 1-888-TELEBOT Extension: 37337245 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- West Virginia Christian Chat Mailing List Sign up at onelist.com or E-mail me. Marshall University Chat Mailing List http://muchat.listbot.com -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- ----- Original Message ----- From: c. chris erway To: Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 1999 9:09 PM Subject: Re: [JDEV] WinCVS cvs and WinCVS works fine for me. i was originally just using the command-line cvs win32 port (same options as unix CVS!) but i just got WinCVS, mostly because of your post here ... wincvs sucks! :> but anyhow, just specify your CVSROOT to be :pserver:anoncvs@jabber.org:/cvs and the auth method to be cvs's remote passwd file. then you just do a "cvs login" and your password is "anoncvs". "cvs co jabber" is command-line shorthand for "cvs checkout jabber", which should get you your own copy of the source tree. i only used winCVS for a few minutes and couldn't figure out how to checkout a module from a server, so just click on "command line..." and type "cvs checkout jabber" to get a new tree. you only checkout ONCE; after that, you do "cvs update" or click the update button once you've navigated into a directory you'd like to update. "Paul L. McNeely" wrote: > > Did you have any luck with it? > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > Paul L. McNeely (drderail@i.am) ICQ# 1305664 > Web Page: http://i.am/drderail > Voicemail: 1-888-TELEBOT Extension: 37337245 > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > West Virginia Christian Chat Mailing List > Sign up at onelist.com or E-mail me. > Marshall University Chat Mailing List > http://muchat.listbot.com > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Thomas D. Charron > To: > Sent: Saturday, July 10, 1999 11:33 AM > Subject: Re: [JDEV] WinCVS > > I will test it out tonight.. If you have a JVM installed, I've used the > Java CVS client with much success under Win32.. > --- > Thomas Charron > > On Fri, 9 Jul 1999 22:37:56 Paul L. McNeely wrote: > >If Anyone has been able to access the CVS server from WinCVS please let me > >know I need yo know what I'm doing wrong. > >-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > >Paul L. McNeely (drderail@i.am) ICQ# 1305664 > >Web Page: http://i.am/drderail > >Voicemail: 1-888-TELEBOT Extension: 37337245 > >-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > > West Virginia Christian Chat Mailing List > > Sign up at onelist.com or E-mail me. > > Marshall University Chat Mailing List > > http://muchat.listbot.com > >-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > > > > > > > > --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- > Share what you know. Learn what you don't. -- .g$$g, c. chris erway .g$$g, cce3@cornell.edu $$$$$$ cornell university $$$$$$ class of 2002, a&s (undeclared) `S$$S' `S$$S' From owner-jdev@jabber.org Tue Jul 20 22:55:52 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA22957 for jdev-list; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 22:55:52 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from hermes.ezwv.com (hermes.ezwv.com [208.163.10.16]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA22954 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 22:55:48 -0500 Received: from muar241 (ip156049.dlup.hunt.ezwv.com [208.168.156.49]) by hermes.ezwv.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id WAA03151 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 22:51:15 -0400 Message-ID: <002501bed324$86110ba0$319ca8d0@marshall.edu> From: "Paul L. McNeely" To: References: Subject: Re: [JDEV] artwork/UI Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 22:55:30 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org gee, Wasn't Mirabilis based in Israel? Almost sounds as a few employees left to make their own or something. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Paul L. McNeely (drderail@i.am) ICQ# 1305664 Web Page: http://i.am/drderail Voicemail: 1-888-TELEBOT Extension: 37337245 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- West Virginia Christian Chat Mailing List Sign up at onelist.com or E-mail me. Marshall University Chat Mailing List http://muchat.listbot.com -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- ----- Original Message ----- From: Mansell, Brian To: Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 1999 3:54 PM Subject: RE: [JDEV] artwork/UI I don't know if any of you are familiar of Odigo, the new Israel-based instant messenger client. But I think we all can learn mistakes/advantages of its interface. It incorporates a lot of aspects of icq and vrealms. I encourage you all to try out their beta version at www.odigo.com ... brian e. mansell CIS Help Desk - Seattle Pacific University E-Mail - bmansell@spu.edu HomePage - http://www.spu.edu/~bmansell/ Office |206| 281-2982 Personal Fax |603|452-7014 Seattle, Washington 98119 USA, Earth -----Original Message----- From: Paul L. McNeely [mailto:drderail@i.am] Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 1999 11:45 AM To: jdev@jabber.org Subject: Re: [JDEV] artwork/UI well, the idea would be to have the 'default' skin, perhaps not allow the ability to add more just yet or whatever then as it goes incorporate the ability in, but with that you have the problme that somone might try to edit the defaults. If you allowed skins from the get go you have the ability to gear clients more to the skins ahead of time, Incorporating skins later sometimes causes problems and version conflicts in skins when you update the client. Winamp had this problem in a few versions. If you were able to have the visual inteface to be dynamic and be based off the skinn file you can have interfaces that look totally different from one another yet still have the core code behind it. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Paul L. McNeely (drderail@i.am) ICQ# 1305664 Web Page: http://i.am/drderail Voicemail: 1-888-TELEBOT Extension: 37337245 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- West Virginia Christian Chat Mailing List Sign up at onelist.com or E-mail me. Marshall University Chat Mailing List http://muchat.listbot.com -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- ----- Original Message ----- From: Mansell, Brian To: Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 1999 1:35 PM Subject: RE: [JDEV] artwork/UI I don't know if skins would be the best idea for an initial release. Certainly it loses it's standard uniformity by doing skins in any alpha releases. brian e. mansell CIS Help Desk - Seattle Pacific University E-Mail - bmansell@spu.edu HomePage - http://www.spu.edu/~bmansell/ Office |206| 281-2982 Personal Fax |603|452-7014 Seattle, Washington 98119 USA, Earth -----Original Message----- From: Paul L. McNeely [mailto:drderail@i.am] Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 1999 8:47 AM To: jdev@jabber.org Subject: Re: [JDEV] artwork/UI Actually Skins would be the best choice, Actually I have some images I create when I was toying around with the idea of a pager written in vb, I still have the code and everything, I cold donate it to the effort. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Paul L. McNeely (drderail@i.am) ICQ# 1305664 Web Page: http://i.am/drderail Voicemail: 1-888-TELEBOT Extension: 37337245 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- West Virginia Christian Chat Mailing List Sign up at onelist.com or E-mail me. Marshall University Chat Mailing List http://muchat.listbot.com -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- ----- Original Message ----- From: Sean McCullough To: Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 1999 11:02 AM Subject: [JDEV] artwork/UI How would you feel about using a standard set of icons for things like users, groups, IMs across all graphical clients? I'm not suggesting they be required, but it would a) make implementing a new client easier and b) give Jabber a stronger identity for the non-programmer users. I know it's a client UI implementation issue and therefore out of the scope of the Jabber specs but like I said, it would just be a set of icons that implementors are free to use if they so desire. I don't know if AIM/YAHOO/ICQ would get their undergarments in a knot about Jabber clients ripping icons from their clients, but I personally don't think those UIs are worth ripping off. The Jabber team could come up with better ones. Another related issue is a logo. Gnome = foot, Linux = penguin, BSD = devil, Apache = feather - It's not just an issue for commercial products to address. What would a "Jabber Now" link button look like? ICQ's has that flower on it. I think the other buddy lists have them too. Sorry if the marketing questions make you ill. Now I need to go write some code, repent for my sins. -Sean McCullough _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From owner-jdev@jabber.org Wed Jul 21 08:54:54 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA25681 for jdev-list; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 08:54:54 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from mc-qout4.whowhere.com (mc-qout4.whowhere.com [209.185.123.18]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA25678 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 08:54:52 -0500 Received: from Unknown/Local ([?.?.?.?]) by my-deja.com; Wed Jul 21 05:54:15 1999 To: jdev@jabber.org Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 05:54:15 -0700 From: "Thomas D. Charron" Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sent-Mail: off X-Mailer: MailCity Service Subject: RE: [JDEV] artwork/UI X-Sender-Ip: 206.50.182.5 Organization: My Deja Email (http://www.my-deja.com:80) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org Jer, I'm disappointed.. The list server hasn't implemented an autothwack system yet.. ;-P --- Thomas Charron On Tue, 20 Jul 1999 14:17:27 Mansell, Brian wrote: >You're right... I thought of it on the basis of having 40k/ a piece jpgs >being transfered.. of course that would be unrealistic. Yeah, certainly the >smaller image size would work. Also it can be used to implement a >banner advertising system... (SORRY I HAD TO MENTION IT!) > > >heh... > >brian e. mansell >CIS Help Desk - Seattle Pacific University >E-Mail - bmansell@spu.edu >HomePage - http://www.spu.edu/~bmansell/ >Office |206| 281-2982 Personal Fax |603|452-7014 >Seattle, Washington 98119 USA, Earth > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Thomas D. Charron [mailto:tcharron@my-deja.com] >Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 1999 12:59 PM >To: jdev@jabber.org >Subject: RE: [JDEV] artwork/UI > > > Not really.. For example, this is an XPM of an open book: > >my @book_open_xpm = ( >"16 16 4 1", >" c None s None", >". c black", >"X c #808080", >"o c white", >" ", >" .. ", >" .Xo. ... ", >" .Xoo. ..oo. ", >" .Xooo.Xooo... ", >" .Xooo.oooo.X. ", >" .Xooo.Xooo.X. ", >" .Xooo.oooo.X. ", >" .Xooo.Xooo.X. ", >" .Xooo.oooo.X. ", >" .Xoo.Xoo..X. ", >" .Xo.o..ooX. ", >" .X..XXXXX. ", >" ..X....... ", >" .. ", >" "); > > You'd only need like 5 icons max, and they would only be downloaded as >requested (Aka, NOT ever time, only when needed, once per client, really). >Icons are not more then 256 bytes, really, so 5 = little more then 1k, it >would take ALL 2000 client requesting all 5 icons to saturate a T1 line for >a second and a half.. ;-P Normal usage, lesse 100 users simo login and >request, leading to 200k in bandwidth for a moment.. > > Anyway, I digress.. The point I'm making is it would NOT be as bad as you >would think.. ;-P >--- >Thomas Charron > >On Tue, 20 Jul 1999 11:19:04 Mansell, Brian wrote: >>I think it may create a bog on the bandwidth by keeping icons on the >server. >>With every 'client update' that will slow it down quite a bit... especially >>if jabber ends up becoming highly popular (2000+ simultaneous connections). >> >>brian e. mansell >>CIS Help Desk - Seattle Pacific University >>E-Mail - bmansell@spu.edu >>HomePage - http://www.spu.edu/~bmansell/ >>Office |206| 281-2982 Personal Fax |603|452-7014 >>Seattle, Washington 98119 USA, Earth >> >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Thomas D. Charron [mailto:tcharron@my-deja.com] >>Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 1999 10:41 AM >>To: jdev@jabber.org >>Subject: Re: [JDEV] artwork/UI >> >> >> I DO like the Logo statement, but I think we need to have a working >system >>that can be used for a minumal depoyment before a logo.. >> >> I would also support the idea of a way to store icons on server, and >allow >>them to be transfered between clients.. Aka, when I'm in a browser client, >>I have the SAME icons, but that capability is a bit of a ways away.. >>--- >>Thomas Charron >> >>On Tue, 20 Jul 1999 11:02:44 Sean McCullough wrote: >>>How would you feel about using a standard set of icons >>>for things like users, groups, IMs across all graphical clients? I'm >>>not suggesting they be required, but it >>>would a) make implementing a new client easier and b) >>>give Jabber a stronger identity for the non-programmer users. I know >>>it's a client UI implementation issue and therefore out of the scope of >>>the Jabber specs but >>>like I said, it would just be a set of icons that implementors are free >>>to use if they so desire. >>> >>>I don't know if AIM/YAHOO/ICQ would get their undergarments in a knot >>>about Jabber clients ripping >>>icons from their clients, but I personally don't think >>>those UIs are worth ripping off. The Jabber team could come up with >>>better ones. >>> >>>Another related issue is a logo. Gnome = foot, Linux = penguin, BSD = >>>devil, Apache = feather - It's not just an issue for commercial >>>products to address. What would a "Jabber Now" link button look like? >>>ICQ's has that flower on it. I think the other buddy lists have them >>>too. >>> >>>Sorry if the marketing questions make you ill. Now I need to go write >>>some code, repent for my sins. >>> >>>-Sean McCullough >>>_________________________________________________________ >>>Do You Yahoo!? >>>Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com >>> >>> >> >> >>--== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- >>Share what you know. Learn what you don't. >> > > >--== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- >Share what you know. Learn what you don't. > --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- Share what you know. Learn what you don't. From owner-jdev@jabber.org Wed Jul 21 09:31:09 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA26020 for jdev-list; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 09:31:09 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from mc-qout4.whowhere.com (mc-qout4.whowhere.com [209.185.123.18]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA26017 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 09:30:59 -0500 Received: from Unknown/Local ([?.?.?.?]) by my-deja.com; Wed Jul 21 06:30:21 1999 To: jdev@jabber.org, tmib@tiac.net, amalica@tiac.net Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 06:30:21 -0700 From: "Thomas D. Charron" Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sent-Mail: off X-Mailer: MailCity Service Subject: RE: [JDEV] artwork/UI X-Sender-Ip: 206.50.182.5 Organization: My Deja Email (http://www.my-deja.com:80) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org (For tmib and amalica, read the last part of the message to understand why I'm CCing you..) On Tue, 20 Jul 1999 05:23:23 Corbett J. Klempay wrote: >This is a very important suggestion that you're making. I know (from your >comments below) that you're worried of sounding like a marketing guy, but >branding is really a legitmate concern. If we want Jabber to become widely >adopted, it must be pretty (I know that functionality and quality are the >most important things, but as evil as it sounds, a slick interface is >HUGE...the droves of AOL-using moms aren't going to care that it is a >technically superior engine). In the same way that anyone seeing the little >flower knows it's ICQ, we must have the same thing going for us... Yep, totally agreed. That's why the Win32 client does all of the fancy stuff like minimize to taskbar, and animated icons, etc.. (I FINALLY HAVE my Visual C++ installed, and my laptop, so, starting tonight I can hopefully start back on the Win32 client) >I don't know either...I would avoid risking it. I think the only graphical >reference we have to them is maybe an icon (or set) to indicate >communication with an AIM/YAHOO/ICQ client. Theyt already did.. Take a look at the GAIM projects home page.. AOL lawyers basically told them to remove ALL wording of Gnu Aol Instant Messanger, and can now merely say AIM compatible, had to remove all AOL logos and icons, etc.. >Yes, definitely...I'm trying to think though...what comes to mind when you >think of the word 'Jabber' (I think of a mouth kind of like the Rolling >Stones logo :)...but it needs to simultaneously be slick, non-tacky, and >classic looking all at once. Any artists in the group? Niel, I'm forwarding this to you and Adam for the above comment.. For the rest to understand, Niel is the guy I was mentioning earlier that works for an ISP that is going to try to push Jabber for usage at tiac.net, which is now a part of PSINet, and also happen to be pretty darned good artists as well.. --- Thomas Charron --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- Share what you know. Learn what you don't. From owner-jdev@jabber.org Thu Jul 22 12:21:02 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA00754 for jdev-list; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 12:21:02 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from onclave.com ([208.249.126.103]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA00751 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 12:20:59 -0500 Received: from cc1010356a [24.3.178.110] by onclave.com (SMTPD32-5.04) id A6E09680228; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 12:29:20 EST From: "Steven Hatch" To: Subject: [JDEV] MSN Messenger Released Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 12:20:36 -0400 Message-ID: <000101bed45e$220d1690$6eb20318@sumt1.nj.home.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org hey gang, long-time lurker and huge jabber enthusiast! i just thought i'd let everyone know that msn messenger has been released. i have no affiliation with MS, but it's worth a look because the messenger supports AIM along with the native MSN and hotmail support. the UI is pretty basic, along the lines of AIM, and i think it can be confusing with regard to adding users. however, check it out for yourself: http://messenger.msn.com go jabber! -s From owner-jdev@jabber.org Thu Jul 22 14:45:33 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA01566 for jdev-list; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 14:45:33 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from calloway.mit.edu (CALLOWAY.MIT.EDU [18.55.1.20]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA01563 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 14:45:30 -0500 Received: (from belg4mit@localhost) by calloway.mit.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA04371; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 14:47:54 -0400 From: Jerrad Pierce Message-Id: <199907221847.OAA04371@calloway.mit.edu> To: jdev@jabber.org Subject: [JDEV] transport Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 14:47:53 EDT Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org has there been any discussion of a gale transport? it could probably share quite a few libraries with a zephyr transport... -- Please take the time to answer the simple survey at: http://www.pthbb.org/cgi.bin/survey/ * __ * . \ | / . . . . . ((_ _____ . . . -- / \ -- . . . + . . _/\ oooooooooo. | * . . . * / ;M\_ . .oooooooooooo.oo. . . . . /\ . / :IMM\ ..oooooooooooo..oo. Jerrad Pierce /\ / \ / ;IIWMM ..oooooooooo....... 209 North Street + / \ / \ . / ;IIIIWM ...ooooooooo....... Randolph, MA 02368 / \ \ ___/ :;IIIIIWM ....ooo....o....... / \ \ / :: ;;IIIMI .....ooo......... http://www.pthbb.org / \ \ : :::;IIIM ..ooooooo.... __________________________ || || ::.....:::::: MOTD on Pungenday, the 57th of Confusion, in the YOLD 3165: Think I've gone insane, can't remember my own name. Think I've gone insane... --Therapy? From owner-jdev@jabber.org Thu Jul 22 15:13:22 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA01795 for jdev-list; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 15:13:22 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from mc-qout4.whowhere.com (mc-qout4.whowhere.com [209.185.123.18]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA01792 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 15:13:19 -0500 Received: from Unknown/Local ([?.?.?.?]) by my-deja.com; Thu Jul 22 12:12:43 1999 To: jdev@jabber.org Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 12:12:43 -0700 From: "Thomas D. Charron" Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sent-Mail: off X-Mailer: MailCity Service Subject: Re: [JDEV] MSN Messenger Released X-Sender-Ip: 206.50.182.6 Organization: My Deja Email (http://www.my-deja.com:80) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org I noticed this as well.. I wonder if it 'requires' that you have an AOL account as well.. I'm about to take a peek at it, but so far I am woefully unimpressed with what it looks like.. --- Thomas Charron On Thu, 22 Jul 1999 12:20:36 Steven Hatch wrote: >hey gang, > >long-time lurker and huge jabber enthusiast! i just thought i'd let everyone >know that msn messenger has been released. i have no affiliation with MS, >but it's worth a look because the messenger supports AIM along with the >native MSN and hotmail support. the UI is pretty basic, along the lines of >AIM, and i think it can be confusing with regard to adding users. however, >check it out for yourself: > >http://messenger.msn.com > >go jabber! > >-s > > --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- Share what you know. Learn what you don't. From owner-jdev@jabber.org Thu Jul 22 15:25:18 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA01895 for jdev-list; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 15:25:18 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from mc-qout4.whowhere.com (mc-qout4.whowhere.com [209.185.123.18]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA01892 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 15:25:16 -0500 Received: from Unknown/Local ([?.?.?.?]) by my-deja.com; Thu Jul 22 12:24:33 1999 To: jdev@jabber.org Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 12:24:33 -0700 From: "Thomas D. Charron" Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sent-Mail: off X-Mailer: MailCity Service Subject: Re: [JDEV] MSN Messenger Released X-Sender-Ip: 206.50.182.6 Organization: My Deja Email (http://www.my-deja.com:80) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org Not only am I unimpressed, but I'm insulted.. ;-P It doesn't even support http proxy's, only Socks4/5. Can you say 'AIM CLONE' three times fast? --- Thomas Charron On Thu, 22 Jul 1999 12:20:36 Steven Hatch wrote: >hey gang, > >long-time lurker and huge jabber enthusiast! i just thought i'd let everyone >know that msn messenger has been released. i have no affiliation with MS, >but it's worth a look because the messenger supports AIM along with the >native MSN and hotmail support. the UI is pretty basic, along the lines of >AIM, and i think it can be confusing with regard to adding users. however, >check it out for yourself: > >http://messenger.msn.com > >go jabber! > >-s > > --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- Share what you know. Learn what you don't. From owner-jdev@jabber.org Thu Jul 22 15:26:06 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA01908 for jdev-list; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 15:26:06 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from mc-qout4.whowhere.com (mc-qout4.whowhere.com [209.185.123.18]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA01905 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 15:26:04 -0500 Received: from Unknown/Local ([?.?.?.?]) by my-deja.com; Thu Jul 22 12:25:33 1999 To: jdev@jabber.org Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 12:25:33 -0700 From: "Thomas D. Charron" Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sent-Mail: off X-Mailer: MailCity Service Subject: Re: [JDEV] transport X-Sender-Ip: 206.50.182.6 Organization: My Deja Email (http://www.my-deja.com:80) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org Ok, I'll play the idiot.. What IS gale? ;-P --- Thomas Charron On Thu, 22 Jul 1999 14:47:53 Jerrad Pierce wrote: > >has there been any discussion of a gale transport? > >it could probably share quite a few libraries with a zephyr transport... > > >-- >Please take the time to answer the simple survey at: > http://www.pthbb.org/cgi.bin/survey/ > * __ * . > \ | / . . . . . ((_ > _____ . . . > -- / \ -- . . . + . . _/\ > oooooooooo. | * . . . * / ;M\_ . > .oooooooooooo.oo. . . . . /\ . / :IMM\ > ..oooooooooooo..oo. Jerrad Pierce /\ / \ / ;IIWMM > ..oooooooooo....... 209 North Street + / \ / \ . / ;IIIIWM > ...ooooooooo....... Randolph, MA 02368 / \ \ ___/ :;IIIIIWM > ....ooo....o....... / \ \ / :: ;;IIIMI > .....ooo......... http://www.pthbb.org / \ \ : :::;IIIM > ..ooooooo.... __________________________ || || ::.....:::::: >MOTD on Pungenday, the 57th of Confusion, in the YOLD 3165: > >Think I've gone insane, can't remember my own name. Think I've gone insane... --Therapy? > --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- Share what you know. Learn what you don't. From owner-jdev@jabber.org Thu Jul 22 16:24:23 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA02448 for jdev-list; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 16:24:23 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from exchange3.spu.edu (exchange3.spu.edu [192.190.33.112]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA02445 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 16:24:20 -0500 Received: by exchange3.spu.edu with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 13:24:27 -0700 Message-ID: From: "Mansell, Brian" To: "'jdev@jabber.org'" Subject: RE: [JDEV] MSN Messenger Released Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 13:24:34 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org It does require an AIM account... but the interface is much nicer than AIM.. it does still not have a file transfer protocol. I like the websearch function too (very similar to ICQ). I wouldn't be surprised if IE6 doesn't have this messenger integrated into the browser as a pop down feature (similar to History, and Search). For an introductory messenger it is much better than Odigo and AIM, and yahoo pager. Furthermore the download was only around 300k. I didn't like the fact that i had to create a hotmail account to get online, but I guess it's all part of microsoft's money making scheme of things. brian e. mansell CIS Help Desk - Seattle Pacific University E-Mail - bmansell@spu.edu HomePage - http://www.spu.edu/~bmansell/ Office |206| 281-2982 Personal Fax |603|452-7014 Seattle, Washington 98119 USA, Earth -----Original Message----- From: Thomas D. Charron [mailto:tcharron@my-deja.com] Sent: Thursday, July 22, 1999 12:13 PM To: jdev@jabber.org Subject: Re: [JDEV] MSN Messenger Released I noticed this as well.. I wonder if it 'requires' that you have an AOL account as well.. I'm about to take a peek at it, but so far I am woefully unimpressed with what it looks like.. --- Thomas Charron On Thu, 22 Jul 1999 12:20:36 Steven Hatch wrote: >hey gang, > >long-time lurker and huge jabber enthusiast! i just thought i'd let everyone >know that msn messenger has been released. i have no affiliation with MS, >but it's worth a look because the messenger supports AIM along with the >native MSN and hotmail support. the UI is pretty basic, along the lines of >AIM, and i think it can be confusing with regard to adding users. however, >check it out for yourself: > >http://messenger.msn.com > >go jabber! > >-s > > --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- Share what you know. Learn what you don't. From owner-jdev@jabber.org Thu Jul 22 16:26:45 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA02470 for jdev-list; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 16:26:45 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from calloway.mit.edu (CALLOWAY.MIT.EDU [18.55.1.20]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA02467 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 16:26:39 -0500 Received: (from belg4mit@localhost) by calloway.mit.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA04795; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 16:29:03 -0400 Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 16:29:03 -0400 From: Jerrad Pierce Message-Id: <199907222029.QAA04795@calloway.mit.edu> To: jdev@jabber.org Subject: [JDEV] what is gale Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org In reply to your message from the not too distant future: next Thursday AD Reply-to: belg4mit@mit.edu Return-receipt-to: belg4mit@mit.edu Organization: a) Discordia b) none c) what's that? Content-Typo: gibberish, charset=ascii-art Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 16:29:01 EDT From: belg4mit sorry, gale is gale.org sort of a reworking of zephyr. more modern in it's method of attack than zephyr though. they seem to know of us, and think of us as "the most serious competition out there... Gale and Jabber could be roughly orthogonal.." --jp -- Please take the time to answer the simple survey at: http://www.pthbb.org/cgi.bin/survey/ * __ * . \ | / . . . . . ((_ _____ . . . -- / \ -- . . . + . . _/\ oooooooooo. | * . . . * / ;M\_ . .oooooooooooo.oo. . . . . /\ . / :IMM\ ..oooooooooooo..oo. Jerrad Pierce /\ / \ / ;IIWMM ..oooooooooo....... 209 North Street + / \ / \ . / ;IIIIWM ...ooooooooo....... Randolph, MA 02368 / \ \ ___/ :;IIIIIWM ....ooo....o....... / \ \ / :: ;;IIIMI .....ooo......... http://www.pthbb.org / \ \ : :::;IIIM ..ooooooo.... __________________________ || || ::.....:::::: MOTD on Pungenday, the 57th of Confusion, in the YOLD 3165: Think I've gone insane, can't remember my own name. Think I've gone insane... --Therapy? From owner-jdev@jabber.org Thu Jul 22 16:32:05 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA02583 for jdev-list; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 16:32:05 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from exchange3.spu.edu (exchange3.spu.edu [192.190.33.112]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA02580 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 16:32:01 -0500 Received: by exchange3.spu.edu with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 13:32:08 -0700 Message-ID: From: "Mansell, Brian" To: "'jdev@jabber.org'" Subject: RE: [JDEV] MSN Messenger Released Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 13:32:14 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org True from a secured aspect it is buggy. However it is an initial release, and if someone was looking for a secured client.... they wouldn't look to MSN or AOL for help. brian e. mansell CIS Help Desk - Seattle Pacific University E-Mail - bmansell@spu.edu HomePage - http://www.spu.edu/~bmansell/ Office |206| 281-2982 Personal Fax |603|452-7014 Seattle, Washington 98119 USA, Earth -----Original Message----- From: Thomas D. Charron [mailto:tcharron@my-deja.com] Sent: Thursday, July 22, 1999 12:25 PM To: jdev@jabber.org Subject: Re: [JDEV] MSN Messenger Released Not only am I unimpressed, but I'm insulted.. ;-P It doesn't even support http proxy's, only Socks4/5. Can you say 'AIM CLONE' three times fast? --- Thomas Charron On Thu, 22 Jul 1999 12:20:36 Steven Hatch wrote: >hey gang, > >long-time lurker and huge jabber enthusiast! i just thought i'd let everyone >know that msn messenger has been released. i have no affiliation with MS, >but it's worth a look because the messenger supports AIM along with the >native MSN and hotmail support. the UI is pretty basic, along the lines of >AIM, and i think it can be confusing with regard to adding users. however, >check it out for yourself: > >http://messenger.msn.com > >go jabber! > >-s > > --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- Share what you know. Learn what you don't. From owner-jdev@jabber.org Thu Jul 22 17:11:29 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA02959 for jdev-list; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 17:11:29 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from iris.host4u.net (iris.host4u.net [209.150.128.170]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA02956 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 17:11:27 -0500 From: elandrum@bigfoot.com Received: from user233.132.comwerx.net (teenextreme.org [216.71.4.25]) by iris.host4u.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA10852 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 16:11:12 -0500 Message-Id: <199907222111.QAA10852@iris.host4u.net> To: jdev@jabber.org Subject: [JDEV] Fwd: [BUGTRAQ] First reflections on security of MSN Messenger Date: Thu, 22 Jul 99 21:11:13 +0000 X-Mailer: Endymion MailMan v2.0 Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org To underline what Brian Mansell just posted a moment ago, I received this message from the BUGTRAQ list. I won't litter the list with anymore than this one message.... Eliot Landrum elandrum@bigfoot.com Forwarded Message: > To: BUGTRAQ@securityfocus.com > From: Dmitri Alperovitch > Subject: First reflections on security of MSN Messenger > Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 03:40:35 -0400 > -----
Hi.

Having just downloaded and briefly examined the newly released Microsoft's
MSN Messenger,
(Microsoft's alternative to ICQ, AIM and other instant messaging clients) I
must say that Microsoft
has not learn a single thing from serious security design mistakes made by
other instant
messengers.  Here is a list of vulnerabilities that I have found in the
first 30 minutes of using it:

1.  Password (which is the same as your Hotmail e-mail password) and
contact list are stored in
      the Registry (HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Identities).
      They are both stored as ASCII values in a binary field (Does
Microsoft actually believe that
       such amateur trick is going to stop a serious hacker?)

2. The instant messages are sent unencrypted in MIME format.  Curiously,
there is a mention of
      "security software licensed from RSA Data Security, Inc" in the About
box of the application
      and the program is apparently using Crypto API Hash functions for
_something_ but it's unclear
      for which purpose.  It might actually send a password hash, instead
of the real password, in it's
      communication with the server, but I have not been able to check that
yet.

3. The program is using Hotmail as its user base. So, if you do not have a
Hotmail account,
      you apparently cannot use the program until you register one (nice
marketing technique).
      However, this also presents a big security problem.  Hotmail has a
policy to terminate user
      accounts after 120 days of inactivity. So, you might find yourself in
a situation where you've
      been unable to access your Hotmail account for 3 months and someone
else has registered your
      account and is impersonating you on MSN Messenger!

These are only the most noticeable problems that I've discovered by just
examining program's
operation, the registry, and very briefly looking at the packets sent by
the program.  A closer
and more thorough examination of the packet exchange might reveal further
and maybe even
more serious security weaknesses.

Yours truly,


Dmitri Alperovitch
Encryption Software - Developers of TSM for ICQ, an ICQ encryption add-on
http://www.encrsoft.com
dmitri@encrsoft.com


From owner-jdev@jabber.org Thu Jul 22 20:39:03 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA03898 for jdev-list; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 20:39:03 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from katie.tranzoa.com (sdn-ar-003waseatP007.dialsprint.net [168.191.231.15]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA03894 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 20:38:56 -0500 Received: from tara.tranzoa.com (IDENT:postfix@tara.tranzoa.com [10.1.1.66]) by katie.tranzoa.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA22403 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 17:38:14 -0700 Received: by tara.tranzoa.com (Postfix, from userid 0) id 77C95E6824; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 17:38:08 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 17:38:08 -0700 From: Scott Robinson To: jdev@jabber.org Subject: Re: [JDEV] what is gale Message-ID: <19990722173807.A12289@tara.tranzoa.com> References: <199907222029.QAA04795@calloway.mit.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary=mP3DRpeJDSE+ciuQ; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.6i In-Reply-To: <199907222029.QAA04795@calloway.mit.edu>; from Jerrad Pierce on Thu, Jul 22, 1999 at 04:29:03PM -0400 X-Disclaimer: The contents of this e-mail, unless otherwise stated, are the property of David Ryland Scott Robinson. Copyright (C)1999, All Rights Reservered. X-Operating-System: Linux tara.tranzoa.com 2.2.5-15 Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org --mP3DRpeJDSE+ciuQ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I happen to be a Gale user. It's similar to Zephyr except it has end-to-end encryption. Your "account" on Gale is actually a public/private key combination. Gale uses RSAREF for encryption, which is _not_ exportable outside the US without a license. I'm still looking at Jabber, but writing a Gale transport for it wouldn't be very hard. It's another protocol, nothing special. ;) Does anyone else have any other questions? Scott. * Jerrad Pierce translated into ASCII [Thu, Jul 22, 1999 at 04:29:03PM -040= 0][<199907222029.QAA04795@calloway.mit.edu>] > In reply to your message from the not too distant future: next Thursday AD > Reply-to: belg4mit@mit.edu > Return-receipt-to: belg4mit@mit.edu > Organization: a) Discordia b) none c) what's that? > Content-Typo: gibberish, charset=3Dascii-art > Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 16:29:01 EDT > From: belg4mit >=20 > sorry, gale is gale.org >=20 > sort of a reworking of zephyr. more modern in it's method of attack than > zephyr though. >=20 > they seem to know of us, and think of us as "the most serious competition= out > there... Gale and Jabber could be roughly orthogonal.." >=20 > --jp > -- > Please take the time to answer the simple survey at: > http://www.pthbb.org/cgi.bin/survey/ > * __ * = . > \ | / . . . . . ((_ > _____ . . = . > -- / \ -- . . . + . . _/\ > oooooooooo. | * . . . * / ;= M\_ . > .oooooooooooo.oo. . . . . /\ . / :IMM\ > ..oooooooooooo..oo. Jerrad Pierce /\ / \ / ;II= WMM > ..oooooooooo....... 209 North Street + / \ / \ . / ;III= IWM > ...ooooooooo....... Randolph, MA 02368 / \ \ ___/ :;IIII= IWM > ....ooo....o....... / \ \ / :: ;;II= IMI > .....ooo......... http://www.pthbb.org / \ \ : :::;I= IIM > ..ooooooo.... __________________________ || || ::.....:::::: > MOTD on Pungenday, the 57th of Confusion, in the YOLD 3165: >=20 > Think I've gone insane, can't remember my own name. Think I've gone insan= e... --Therapy? --mP3DRpeJDSE+ciuQ Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v0.9.8 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iEYEARECAAYFAjeXuW8ACgkQ1MPeBfASdFDn9gCeJgennRv6bTWmj7X8LB1XRH/Q C3IAn3M7985WdZ3AgyiPHVafOfjwE9Gw =X7BW -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --mP3DRpeJDSE+ciuQ-- From owner-jdev@jabber.org Thu Jul 22 22:46:42 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA04473 for jdev-list; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 22:46:42 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from mc-qout4.whowhere.com (mc-qout4.whowhere.com [209.185.123.18]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA04470 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 22:46:40 -0500 Received: from Unknown/Local ([?.?.?.?]) by my-deja.com; Thu Jul 22 19:46:06 1999 To: jdev@jabber.org Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 19:46:06 -0700 From: "Thomas D. Charron" Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sent-Mail: off X-Mailer: MailCity Service Subject: Fwd: RE: [JDEV] artwork/UI X-Sender-Ip: 205.161.31.49 Organization: My Deja Email (http://www.my-deja.com:80) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org --- Thomas Charron --------- Forwarded Message --------- DATE: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 17:38:46 From: The Man in Black To: "Thomas D. Charron" I'll work some rudimentary logos, etc up this week and and hopefully have them scanned in next week. Once that is done, I'll forward the results off to you. Once that is done, you can have the other devs vote on which ones are worth re-working, rescanning, etc. Another idea, is Jabber could hold some sort of logo contest, where the winner would get a mention in the jabber docs, or some such. Some little token of esteem. Just an idea. There are far better artists on the net than me. The way that I look at it, is that what ever is choosen, should be simple yet aestheticly pleasing to look at. And most importantly unique. I'll see what I can come up with. Right now my brain is telling me to use the letters; JBR. But once I am out of work I'm sure that I will come up with something more artsey. See you Friday! Neil Tozier At 06:30 AM 7/21/99 -0700, you wrote: >(For tmib and amalica, read the last part of the message to understand why I'm CCing you..) > >On Tue, 20 Jul 1999 05:23:23 Corbett J. Klempay wrote: >>This is a very important suggestion that you're making. I know (from your >>comments below) that you're worried of sounding like a marketing guy, but >>branding is really a legitmate concern. If we want Jabber to become widely >>adopted, it must be pretty (I know that functionality and quality are the >>most important things, but as evil as it sounds, a slick interface is >>HUGE...the droves of AOL-using moms aren't going to care that it is a >>technically superior engine). In the same way that anyone seeing the little >>flower knows it's ICQ, we must have the same thing going for us... > > Yep, totally agreed. That's why the Win32 client does all of the fancy stuff like minimize to taskbar, and animated icons, etc.. > > (I FINALLY HAVE my Visual C++ installed, and my laptop, so, starting tonight I can hopefully start back on the Win32 client) > >>I don't know either...I would avoid risking it. I think the only graphical >>reference we have to them is maybe an icon (or set) to indicate >>communication with an AIM/YAHOO/ICQ client. > > Theyt already did.. Take a look at the GAIM projects home page.. AOL lawyers basically told them to remove ALL wording of Gnu Aol Instant Messanger, and can now merely say AIM compatible, had to remove all AOL logos and icons, etc.. > >>Yes, definitely...I'm trying to think though...what comes to mind when you >>think of the word 'Jabber' (I think of a mouth kind of like the Rolling >>Stones logo :)...but it needs to simultaneously be slick, non-tacky, and >>classic looking all at once. Any artists in the group? > > Niel, I'm forwarding this to you and Adam for the above comment.. For the rest to understand, Niel is the guy I was mentioning earlier that works for an ISP that is going to try to push Jabber for usage at tiac.net, which is now a part of PSINet, and also happen to be pretty darned good artists as well.. > >--- >Thomas Charron > > > > >--== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- >Share what you know. Learn what you don't. > > TMiB ebayid: themaninblack http://www.tiac.net/users/tmib --------- End Forwarded Message --------- --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- Share what you know. Learn what you don't. From owner-jdev@jabber.org Fri Jul 23 01:26:32 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA05220 for jdev-list; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 01:26:32 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from localhost (jeremie@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA05217 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 01:26:30 -0500 Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 01:26:29 -0500 (CDT) From: Jeremie X-Sender: jeremie@mondo.eppg.com To: jdev@jabber.org Subject: [JDEV] Quick note... Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org Just wanted to drop a quick note and let everyone know what's happening on this side of things... The new server is finally stable and ready for use! This weekend I'll be moving CVS to it(read: cvs access will be disabled) and this list and the site should be moving over early next week. After I get all of these server related issues out of the way it will be back to business here. The first matter at hand is a new "team" model. I'll post some more details over the weekend, but simply it's a reworking of the development tools and model so that it's easier to understand and focus on particular areas, core team, web team, perl team, etc... I'll be catching up on some email from this week as soon as I can get to a decent client. Thanks! Jer From owner-jdev@jabber.org Fri Jul 23 07:17:00 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA06724 for jdev-list; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 07:17:00 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from mail-blue.research.att.com (mail-blue.research.att.com [135.207.30.102]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA06721 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 07:16:57 -0500 Received: from amontillado.research.att.com (amontillado.research.att.com [135.207.24.32]) by mail-blue.research.att.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7FBB4CE21 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 07:16:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from issr.research.att.com ([135.207.8.82]) by amontillado.research.att.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA01026 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 07:16:49 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <37984E53.CBC93370@issr.research.att.com> Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 07:13:23 -0400 From: Vijay Saraswat X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.07 [en] (WinNT; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: jdev@jabber.org Subject: Re: [JDEV] Fwd: [BUGTRAQ] First reflections on security of MSN Messenger References: <199907222111.QAA10852@iris.host4u.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org So ... can anyone else connect to their AOL IM account this morning with MSN Messenger? All my attempts at connecting are being rebuffed with an incorrect password/login does not exist error... even though I can connect to the accounts using a native AOL IM client and a TOC AOL IM client..I've talked to a dozen other people already.. same result. It would be interesting if AOL has already found a way to detect that you are using MSN Messenger and dropping the connection, so that all MSN Messenger attempts to connect are rebuffed. The first cyber war....??? Best, Vijay-the-inveterate-IM-user [Jer, others: if this is not of interest to the guys on this list, let me know and I will shut up.] elandrum@bigfoot.com wrote: > To underline what Brian Mansell just posted a moment ago, I received this > message from the BUGTRAQ list. I won't litter the list with anymore than this > one message.... > > Eliot Landrum > elandrum@bigfoot.com > > Forwarded Message: > > To: BUGTRAQ@securityfocus.com > > From: Dmitri Alperovitch > > Subject: First reflections on security of MSN Messenger > > Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 03:40:35 -0400 > > ----- >
> Hi.
>
> Having just downloaded and briefly examined the newly released Microsoft's
> MSN Messenger,
> (Microsoft's alternative to ICQ, AIM and other instant messaging clients) I
> must say that Microsoft
> has not learn a single thing from serious security design mistakes made by
> other instant
> messengers.  Here is a list of vulnerabilities that I have found in the
> first 30 minutes of using it:
>
> 1.  Password (which is the same as your Hotmail e-mail password) and
> contact list are stored in
>       the Registry (HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Identities).
>       They are both stored as ASCII values in a binary field (Does
> Microsoft actually believe that
>        such amateur trick is going to stop a serious hacker?)
>
> 2. The instant messages are sent unencrypted in MIME format.  Curiously,
> there is a mention of
>       "security software licensed from RSA Data Security, Inc" in the About
> box of the application
>       and the program is apparently using Crypto API Hash functions for
> _something_ but it's unclear
>       for which purpose.  It might actually send a password hash, instead
> of the real password, in it's
>       communication with the server, but I have not been able to check that
> yet.
>
> 3. The program is using Hotmail as its user base. So, if you do not have a
> Hotmail account,
>       you apparently cannot use the program until you register one (nice
> marketing technique).
>       However, this also presents a big security problem.  Hotmail has a
> policy to terminate user
>       accounts after 120 days of inactivity. So, you might find yourself in
> a situation where you've
>       been unable to access your Hotmail account for 3 months and someone
> else has registered your
>       account and is impersonating you on MSN Messenger!
>
> These are only the most noticeable problems that I've discovered by just
> examining program's
> operation, the registry, and very briefly looking at the packets sent by
> the program.  A closer
> and more thorough examination of the packet exchange might reveal further
> and maybe even
> more serious security weaknesses.
>
> Yours truly,
>
> Dmitri Alperovitch
> Encryption Software - Developers of TSM for ICQ, an ICQ encryption add-on
> http://www.encrsoft.com
> dmitri@encrsoft.com
>
> 
From owner-jdev@jabber.org Fri Jul 23 08:31:50 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA07086 for jdev-list; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 08:31:50 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from mc-qout4.whowhere.com (mc-qout4.whowhere.com [209.185.123.18]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA07083 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 08:31:48 -0500 Received: from Unknown/Local ([?.?.?.?]) by my-deja.com; Fri Jul 23 05:31:06 1999 To: jdev@jabber.org Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 05:31:06 -0700 From: "Thomas D. Charron" Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sent-Mail: off X-Mailer: MailCity Service Subject: Re: [JDEV] Quick note... X-Sender-Ip: 206.50.182.6 Organization: My Deja Email (http://www.my-deja.com:80) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org As another note, I can serve as the lead for the Win32 project.. I would also like to suggest, if at all possible that CVS access be linked to the MySQL tables, and directories be assigned a 'security group' for checkins, and the CVS User ID's/Passwords could be driven off of the same access tables as the web page is. I don't believe that cvs HAS that access currently, but an hourly cron job could export the data to the cvs passwd file, could it not? --- Thomas Charron On Fri, 23 Jul 1999 01:26:29 Jeremie wrote: >Just wanted to drop a quick note and let everyone know what's happening on >this side of things... > >The new server is finally stable and ready for use! This weekend I'll be >moving CVS to it(read: cvs access will be disabled) and this list and the >site should be moving over early next week. > >After I get all of these server related issues out of the way it will be >back to business here. The first matter at hand is a new "team" model. >I'll post some more details over the weekend, but simply it's a reworking >of the development tools and model so that it's easier to understand and >focus on particular areas, core team, web team, perl team, etc... > >I'll be catching up on some email from this week as soon as I can get to a >decent client. > >Thanks! > >Jer > > --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- Share what you know. Learn what you don't. From owner-jdev@jabber.org Fri Jul 23 08:33:00 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA07125 for jdev-list; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 08:33:00 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from mc-qout4.whowhere.com (mc-qout4.whowhere.com [209.185.123.18]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA07121 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 08:32:58 -0500 Received: from Unknown/Local ([?.?.?.?]) by my-deja.com; Fri Jul 23 05:32:17 1999 To: jdev@jabber.org Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 05:32:17 -0700 From: "Thomas D. Charron" Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sent-Mail: off X-Mailer: MailCity Service Subject: Re: [JDEV] Fwd: [BUGTRAQ] First reflections on security of MSN Messenger X-Sender-Ip: 206.50.182.6 Organization: My Deja Email (http://www.my-deja.com:80) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org *ROTFL* --- Thomas Charron On Fri, 23 Jul 1999 07:13:23 Vijay Saraswat wrote: >It would be interesting if AOL has already found a way to detect that you are >using MSN Messenger and dropping the connection, so that all MSN Messenger >attempts to connect are rebuffed. --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- Share what you know. Learn what you don't. From owner-jdev@jabber.org Fri Jul 23 09:18:04 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA07631 for jdev-list; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 09:18:04 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from localhost (jeremie@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA07628 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 09:18:02 -0500 Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 09:18:01 -0500 (CDT) From: Jeremie X-Sender: jeremie@mondo.eppg.com To: Jabber Development Subject: Re: [JDEV] jabbertransport quirk? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org What you're hitting here is the special multi-client mode, where one single socket can be multiplexed for multiple logins. As soon as the transport notices a secondary login on the same socket, it creates another session for that login and expects the client to start identifying each incoming "packet" of data. For this slightly different syntax, take a look at: http://jabber.org/download/latest/doc/protocol/multiclient.txt Jer On Mon, 19 Jul 1999, Thomas D. Charron wrote: > Could someone please validate for me that this happens? If you login TWICE to a transport (Aka, send two login messages), it would seem that jabbertransport gets ALL confused.. When I send this: > > uuHiGuy > > After logging in twice with the same username/password, jabbertransport does this: > > [Mon Jul 19 13:27:05 1999] lib "IO: waiting" > [Mon Jul 19 13:27:05 1999] lib "new_data_from=127.0.0.1" > [Mon Jul 19 13:27:05 1999] main "dispatch_data=uuHiGuy" > [Mon Jul 19 13:27:05 1999] main "Processing Normally" > [Mon Jul 19 13:27:05 1999] main "handling_normal_packet=127.0.0.1" > [Mon Jul 19 13:27:05 1999] main "handle_message" > [Mon Jul 19 13:27:05 1999] main "Invalid message, improper from or to" > > Now, I'm NOT condoning that that people SHOULD be logging in twice, but this could cause problems if a socket get's hung, and someone logs in a second time via a transport, but the first one hasn't disconnected yet for some reason.. > --- > Thomas Charron > > > --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- > Share what you know. Learn what you don't. > From owner-jdev@jabber.org Fri Jul 23 09:55:57 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA07915 for jdev-list; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 09:55:57 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from localhost (jeremie@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA07912 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 09:55:54 -0500 Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 09:55:54 -0500 (CDT) From: Jeremie X-Sender: jeremie@mondo.eppg.com To: jdev@jabber.org Subject: Re: [JDEV] artwork/UI In-Reply-To: <19990720150244.23088.rocketmail@web601.yahoomail.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org [note: wow, this is quite the thread I missed :-] > How would you feel about using a standard set of icons > for things like users, groups, IMs across all graphical clients? I'm > not suggesting they be required, but it > would a) make implementing a new client easier and b) > give Jabber a stronger identity for the non-programmer users. I know > it's a client UI implementation issue and therefore out of the scope of > the Jabber specs but > like I said, it would just be a set of icons that implementors are free > to use if they so desire. Yes! This has been in the back of my head, but I've been waiting for a few things to fall into place yet...(below) > Another related issue is a logo. Gnome = foot, Linux = penguin, BSD = > devil, Apache = feather - It's not just an issue for commercial > products to address. What would a "Jabber Now" link button look like? > ICQ's has that flower on it. I think the other buddy lists have them > too. Definately, we need a logo/theme badly... > Sorry if the marketing questions make you ill. Now I need to go write > some code, repent for my sins. :) No prob, marketing is good(as long as I don't have to do it, *g*). Here is what I've been thinking: Based on the "team" model I've been working on for the tools and such, I want to create a special "marketing" or "showme" team. This team would be responsible for coming up with a Logo(likely via a contest they can hold), the structure/layout of the web site, press releases, introductory material, info@jabber.org, etc... There are quite a few people that have already volunteered for this type of work, getting all of them together and moving forward would be a good thing. As far as the icons go, the same team could come up with a reccomended set of icons for clients to use. I've always also wanted to be able to have status icons change dynamically, so based on the upcoming file transfer proposal I'm writing, status packets could contain a reference to a new status icon to download in the field. This is definately something that needs to get moving quickly here... I'll include this team in my list of teams to form next week. Oh, and as far as graphic buttons, some that I really like for their style/look/feel are: http://www.iol.ie/%7ealank/xml/icons.htm#Palm1 Jer From owner-jdev@jabber.org Fri Jul 23 10:04:06 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA08019 for jdev-list; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 10:04:06 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from localhost (jeremie@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA08015 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 10:04:04 -0500 Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 10:04:04 -0500 (CDT) From: Jeremie X-Sender: jeremie@mondo.eppg.com To: "'jdev@jabber.org'" Subject: RE: [JDEV] artwork/UI In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org > I don't know if any of you are familiar of Odigo, the new Israel-based > instant messenger client. But I think we all can learn mistakes/advantages > of its interface. It incorporates a lot of aspects of icq and vrealms. I > encourage you all to try out their beta version at www.odigo.com ... Wow, Odigo is VERY cool! It's a step beyond simply instant messaging, and I love the interface and functionality in it, very innovative! Because it's still instant messaging at the heart of it, it could be bridged to Jabber assuming we could find out about the protocol somehow. What would REALLY be cool is to build a Jabber client and server module that offer similiar functionality. I might email Odigo and see if they are interested in Jabber in any way... Jer From owner-jdev@jabber.org Fri Jul 23 10:31:26 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA08286 for jdev-list; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 10:31:26 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from mc-qout4.whowhere.com (mc-qout4.whowhere.com [209.185.123.18]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA08283 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 10:31:24 -0500 Received: from Unknown/Local ([?.?.?.?]) by my-deja.com; Fri Jul 23 07:30:43 1999 To: jdev@jabber.org Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 07:30:43 -0700 From: "Thomas D. Charron" Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sent-Mail: off X-Mailer: MailCity Service Subject: Re: [JDEV] jabbertransport quirk? X-Sender-Ip: 206.50.182.6 Organization: My Deja Email (http://www.my-deja.com:80) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org Hrm.. I know what you where talking about now.. So the from has to be an attribute of the tag, and not a seperate tag in and of itself, correct? --- Thomas Charron On Fri, 23 Jul 1999 09:18:01 Jeremie wrote: >What you're hitting here is the special multi-client mode, where one >single socket can be multiplexed for multiple logins. As soon as the >transport notices a secondary login on the same socket, it creates another >session for that login and expects the client to start identifying each >incoming "packet" of data. For this slightly different syntax, take a >look at: http://jabber.org/download/latest/doc/protocol/multiclient.txt > >Jer > >On Mon, 19 Jul 1999, Thomas D. Charron wrote: > >> Could someone please validate for me that this happens? If you login TWICE to a transport (Aka, send two login messages), it would seem that jabbertransport gets ALL confused.. When I send this: >> >> uuHiGuy >> >> After logging in twice with the same username/password, jabbertransport does this: >> >> [Mon Jul 19 13:27:05 1999] lib "IO: waiting" >> [Mon Jul 19 13:27:05 1999] lib "new_data_from=127.0.0.1" >> [Mon Jul 19 13:27:05 1999] main "dispatch_data=uuHiGuy" >> [Mon Jul 19 13:27:05 1999] main "Processing Normally" >> [Mon Jul 19 13:27:05 1999] main "handling_normal_packet=127.0.0.1" >> [Mon Jul 19 13:27:05 1999] main "handle_message" >> [Mon Jul 19 13:27:05 1999] main "Invalid message, improper from or to" >> >> Now, I'm NOT condoning that that people SHOULD be logging in twice, but this could cause problems if a socket get's hung, and someone logs in a second time via a transport, but the first one hasn't disconnected yet for some reason.. >> --- >> Thomas Charron >> >> >> --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- >> Share what you know. Learn what you don't. >> > > --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- Share what you know. Learn what you don't. From owner-jdev@jabber.org Fri Jul 23 10:38:05 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA08369 for jdev-list; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 10:38:05 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from thalia.fm.intel.com (thalia.fm.intel.com [132.233.247.11]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA08364 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 10:38:01 -0500 Received: from fmsmsx18.intel.com (fmsmsx18.fm.intel.com [132.233.233.232]) by thalia.fm.intel.com (8.9.1a+p1/8.9.1/d: relay.m4,v 1.6 1998/11/24 22:10:56 iwep Exp iwep $) with ESMTP id HAA03030 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 07:37:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: by fmsmsx18.fm.intel.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 07:37:45 -0700 Message-ID: From: "Kumar, Narasimha" To: "'jdev@jabber.org'" Subject: RE: [JDEV] Fwd: [BUGTRAQ] First reflections on security of MS N Messenger Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 07:37:43 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org I tried connecting without success. I'm sure I set my proxy server addr/port correctly. Has anyone behind a firewall succeeded with this messenger? Thx --Kumar -----Original Message----- From: Vijay Saraswat [mailto:vj@research.att.com] Sent: Friday, July 23, 1999 4:13 AM To: jdev@jabber.org Subject: Re: [JDEV] Fwd: [BUGTRAQ] First reflections on security of MSN Messenger So ... can anyone else connect to their AOL IM account this morning with MSN Messenger? All my attempts at connecting are being rebuffed with an incorrect password/login does not exist error... even though I can connect to the accounts using a native AOL IM client and a TOC AOL IM client..I've talked to a dozen other people already.. same result. It would be interesting if AOL has already found a way to detect that you are using MSN Messenger and dropping the connection, so that all MSN Messenger attempts to connect are rebuffed. The first cyber war....??? Best, Vijay-the-inveterate-IM-user [Jer, others: if this is not of interest to the guys on this list, let me know and I will shut up.] elandrum@bigfoot.com wrote: > To underline what Brian Mansell just posted a moment ago, I received this > message from the BUGTRAQ list. I won't litter the list with anymore than this > one message.... > > Eliot Landrum > elandrum@bigfoot.com > > Forwarded Message: > > To: BUGTRAQ@securityfocus.com > > From: Dmitri Alperovitch > > Subject: First reflections on security of MSN Messenger > > Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 03:40:35 -0400 > > ----- >
> Hi.
>
> Having just downloaded and briefly examined the newly released Microsoft's
> MSN Messenger,
> (Microsoft's alternative to ICQ, AIM and other instant messaging clients)
I
> must say that Microsoft
> has not learn a single thing from serious security design mistakes made by
> other instant
> messengers.  Here is a list of vulnerabilities that I have found in the
> first 30 minutes of using it:
>
> 1.  Password (which is the same as your Hotmail e-mail password) and
> contact list are stored in
>       the Registry (HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Identities).
>       They are both stored as ASCII values in a binary field (Does
> Microsoft actually believe that
>        such amateur trick is going to stop a serious hacker?)
>
> 2. The instant messages are sent unencrypted in MIME format.  Curiously,
> there is a mention of
>       "security software licensed from RSA Data Security, Inc" in the
About
> box of the application
>       and the program is apparently using Crypto API Hash functions for
> _something_ but it's unclear
>       for which purpose.  It might actually send a password hash, instead
> of the real password, in it's
>       communication with the server, but I have not been able to check
that
> yet.
>
> 3. The program is using Hotmail as its user base. So, if you do not have a
> Hotmail account,
>       you apparently cannot use the program until you register one (nice
> marketing technique).
>       However, this also presents a big security problem.  Hotmail has a
> policy to terminate user
>       accounts after 120 days of inactivity. So, you might find yourself
in
> a situation where you've
>       been unable to access your Hotmail account for 3 months and someone
> else has registered your
>       account and is impersonating you on MSN Messenger!
>
> These are only the most noticeable problems that I've discovered by just
> examining program's
> operation, the registry, and very briefly looking at the packets sent by
> the program.  A closer
> and more thorough examination of the packet exchange might reveal further
> and maybe even
> more serious security weaknesses.
>
> Yours truly,
>
> Dmitri Alperovitch
> Encryption Software - Developers of TSM for ICQ, an ICQ encryption add-on
> http://www.encrsoft.com
> dmitri@encrsoft.com
>
> 
From owner-jdev@jabber.org Fri Jul 23 10:59:31 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA08628 for jdev-list; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 10:59:31 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from localhost (jeremie@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA08625 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 10:59:29 -0500 Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 10:59:29 -0500 (CDT) From: Jeremie X-Sender: jeremie@mondo.eppg.com To: jdev@jabber.org Subject: Re: [JDEV] what is gale In-Reply-To: <199907222029.QAA04795@calloway.mit.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org > sorry, gale is gale.org > > sort of a reworking of zephyr. more modern in it's method of attack than > zephyr though. > > they seem to know of us, and think of us as "the most serious competition out > there... Gale and Jabber could be roughly orthogonal.." I've looked at Gale and it's a nice system, especially if you want assuredly secure communications. As was mentioned, it wouldn't be too difficult to build a transport to Gale servers and allow messages to flow to/from Gale, but what would be even more interesting is for the Gale developers to add Jabber support directly to Gale so that it's users can immediately communicate(insecurely, of course) with [Jabber|ICQ|AIM|etc] users. This would be done simply by connecting Gale to etherx and it understanding the Jabber message/status packets incoming and sending them out for it's users. Basically, Gale has the potential to become a secure Jabber server and Gale client software would be secure Jabber clients that use their own protocol and talk only to their secure server... something that would help both projects :) If anyone is interested in this, or knows any of the Gale developers, feel free to forward this or find out what they think. Jer From owner-jdev@jabber.org Fri Jul 23 11:38:40 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA08950 for jdev-list; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 11:38:40 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from localhost (jeremie@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA08947 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 11:38:37 -0500 Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 11:38:37 -0500 (CDT) From: Jeremie X-Sender: jeremie@mondo.eppg.com To: jdev@jabber.org Subject: Re: [JDEV] Fwd: [BUGTRAQ] First reflections on security of MSN Messenger In-Reply-To: <37984E53.CBC93370@issr.research.att.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org On Fri, 23 Jul 1999, Vijay Saraswat wrote: > So ... can anyone else connect to their AOL IM account this morning with MSN > Messenger? > > All my attempts at connecting are being rebuffed with an incorrect password/login > does not exist error... even though I can connect to the accounts using a native > AOL IM client and a TOC AOL IM client..I've talked to a dozen other people > already.. same result. > > It would be interesting if AOL has already found a way to detect that you are > using MSN Messenger and dropping the connection, so that all MSN Messenger > attempts to connect are rebuffed. Hmm... http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,39649,00.html Sounds almost like MSN's client also spoke AIM's protocol natively? It also sounds like AOL isn't too happy allowing others to utilize their AIM service w/o using their client, but there's not much they can do since it's their customer's choice to use a client that utilizes the reverse-engineered AIM protocol. One of the benifits of having the transport bits happening on the server side is so that when something like this happens and they "tweak" their servers to reject clones, the tweak can be fixed and transport replaced without affecting or reinstalling all of the clients :) > > The first cyber war....??? AOL vs. MS, should be interesting :) > > [Jer, others: if this is not of interest to the guys on this list, let me know > and I will shut up.] No prob, please feel free post things like this, I know I find it interesting! Jer From owner-jdev@jabber.org Fri Jul 23 11:39:32 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA08964 for jdev-list; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 11:39:32 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from localhost (jeremie@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA08961 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 11:39:30 -0500 Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 11:39:30 -0500 (CDT) From: Jeremie X-Sender: jeremie@mondo.eppg.com To: jdev@jabber.org Subject: Re: [JDEV] Quick note... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org > As another note, I can serve as the lead for the Win32 project.. Great! > I would also like to suggest, if at all possible that CVS access be > linked to the MySQL tables, and directories be assigned a 'security > group' for checkins, and the CVS User ID's/Passwords could be driven off > of the same access tables as the web page is. I don't believe that cvs > HAS that access currently, but an hourly cron job could export the data > to the cvs passwd file, could it not? That's exactly the plan, and I'll be working on it this weekend. Jer From owner-jdev@jabber.org Fri Jul 23 11:41:34 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA09000 for jdev-list; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 11:41:34 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from localhost (jeremie@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA08997 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 11:41:32 -0500 Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 11:41:32 -0500 (CDT) From: Jeremie X-Sender: jeremie@mondo.eppg.com To: jdev@jabber.org Subject: Re: [JDEV] jabbertransport quirk? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org > Hrm.. I know what you where talking about now.. So the from has to > be an attribute of the tag, and not a seperate tag in and of > itself, correct? Only if you want to do a multi-client connection, yes. Otherwise it's ignored. Jer From owner-jdev@jabber.org Fri Jul 23 11:51:04 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA09198 for jdev-list; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 11:51:04 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from wvc-omak.ctc.edu (wvc-omak.ctc.edu [134.39.155.250]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA09195 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 11:51:00 -0500 Received: from localhost (djarb@localhost) by wvc-omak.ctc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA21576 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 08:54:02 -0700 Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 08:54:02 -0700 (PDT) From: Daniel Arbuckle To: "'jdev@jabber.org'" Subject: RE: [JDEV] artwork/UI In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org Just keep a local cache, and then refer to the icons by name as per the spec. If the message says the icon should be "Sleeping," and I don't have "sleeping" locally, I ask the server for it. Daniel On Tue, 20 Jul 1999, Mansell, Brian wrote: > I think it may create a bog on the bandwidth by keeping icons on the server. > With every 'client update' that will slow it down quite a bit... especially > if jabber ends up becoming highly popular (2000+ simultaneous connections). > > brian e. mansell > CIS Help Desk - Seattle Pacific University > E-Mail - bmansell@spu.edu > HomePage - http://www.spu.edu/~bmansell/ > Office |206| 281-2982 Personal Fax |603|452-7014 > Seattle, Washington 98119 USA, Earth > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Thomas D. Charron [mailto:tcharron@my-deja.com] > Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 1999 10:41 AM > To: jdev@jabber.org > Subject: Re: [JDEV] artwork/UI > > > I DO like the Logo statement, but I think we need to have a working system > that can be used for a minumal depoyment before a logo.. > > I would also support the idea of a way to store icons on server, and allow > them to be transfered between clients.. Aka, when I'm in a browser client, > I have the SAME icons, but that capability is a bit of a ways away.. > --- > Thomas Charron > > On Tue, 20 Jul 1999 11:02:44 Sean McCullough wrote: > >How would you feel about using a standard set of icons > >for things like users, groups, IMs across all graphical clients? I'm > >not suggesting they be required, but it > >would a) make implementing a new client easier and b) > >give Jabber a stronger identity for the non-programmer users. I know > >it's a client UI implementation issue and therefore out of the scope of > >the Jabber specs but > >like I said, it would just be a set of icons that implementors are free > >to use if they so desire. > > > >I don't know if AIM/YAHOO/ICQ would get their undergarments in a knot > >about Jabber clients ripping > >icons from their clients, but I personally don't think > >those UIs are worth ripping off. The Jabber team could come up with > >better ones. > > > >Another related issue is a logo. Gnome = foot, Linux = penguin, BSD = > >devil, Apache = feather - It's not just an issue for commercial > >products to address. What would a "Jabber Now" link button look like? > >ICQ's has that flower on it. I think the other buddy lists have them > >too. > > > >Sorry if the marketing questions make you ill. Now I need to go write > >some code, repent for my sins. > > > >-Sean McCullough > >_________________________________________________________ > >Do You Yahoo!? > >Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com > > > > > > > --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- > Share what you know. Learn what you don't. > From owner-jdev@jabber.org Fri Jul 23 11:56:14 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA09288 for jdev-list; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 11:56:14 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from mail-blue.research.att.com (mail-blue.research.att.com [135.207.30.102]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA09285 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 11:56:11 -0500 Received: from amontillado.research.att.com (amontillado.research.att.com [135.207.24.32]) by mail-blue.research.att.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF69F4CE2D for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 11:56:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from issr.research.att.com ([135.207.11.143]) by amontillado.research.att.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA08474 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 11:55:57 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <37988FBF.74C138F2@issr.research.att.com> Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 11:52:31 -0400 From: Vijay Saraswat X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.07 [en] (WinNT; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: jdev@jabber.org Subject: Re: [JDEV] Fwd: [BUGTRAQ] First reflections on security of MSN Messenger References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org > Sounds almost like MSN's client also spoke AIM's protocol natively? > It also sounds like AOL isn't too happy allowing others to utilize their > AIM service w/o using their client, but there's not much they can do since > it's their customer's choice to use a client that utilizes the > reverse-engineered AIM protocol. > Yes, MSN Messenger does not speak TOC. It speaks OSCAR. During the login sequence it identifies itself as "Compatible client", whereas AOL IM clients distributed by AOL identify themselves as clients such as "AOL Instant Messenger (TM), Version 2.1.1236/WIN32". Apparently, AOL has tweaked their servers so that "Compatible client"s are no longer compatible :) I wouldnt be surprised to see this hit the courts very soon. > > One of the benifits of having the transport bits happening on the server > side is so that when something like this happens and they "tweak" their > servers to reject clones, the tweak can be fixed and transport replaced > without affecting or reinstalling all of the clients :) > Sure, having central mediating servers helps. Best, Vijay From owner-jdev@jabber.org Fri Jul 23 12:29:31 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA09560 for jdev-list; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 12:29:31 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from localhost (jeremie@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA09557 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 12:29:29 -0500 Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 12:29:29 -0500 (CDT) From: Jeremie X-Sender: jeremie@mondo.eppg.com To: jdev@jabber.org Subject: [JDEV] Microsoft Instant Messaging announcements Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org VERY interesting stuff here, and I think it's a great step! The most important thing to note is that Microsoft is developing on an open protocol, currently RVP and in the future the IMPP specification. This allows us to both write a Jabber transport to speak to any of Microsoft's IM products(clients and servers), as well as build an alternate Jabber server that speaks RVP for Microsoft client software to connect to. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 08:27:32 -0700 From: "Sonu Aggarwal (Exchange)" To: "'impp@iastate.edu'" Subject: Microsoft Instant Messaging announcements As you may have noticed, there was a flurry of announcements yesterday regarding Microsoft's new MSN Messenger service, unveiled midnight Wednesday. Since many of you have asked for clarification, I thought I'd describe the relevant details for the list. Microsoft will have two IM offerings - the MSN Messenger Service, targeted at the mass market (like AOL, ICQ, etc.), and the Exchange Instant Messaging product, which will be a component of "Platinum" - the next version of Exchange, targeted at the corporate space. The MSN client will be the client for both offerings. The Exchange Instant Messaging product has a federated server architecture and is based on the open and extensible RVP protocol (which is indicative of the sort of protocol the IMPP WG intends to design), while the MSN Messenger Service uses a different, MSN-specific protocol that is optimized for a large, centralized deployment like MSN. Microsoft is committed to moving both offerings to the IMPP protocol as and when it emerges. The announcements refer to the fact that AOL has so far lacked involvement in IMPP efforts. The MSN Messenger service is available to anyone with a Hotmail account (which is free). The MSN client can interop with AOL - one can have AOL contacts, Hotmail contacts, and RVP contacts on the same contact list concurrently. The client logs the user into each service independently and communicates with the corresponding server-specific protocol to each service; there are no server gateways. Hope that clarifies. Sonu (Program Manager - Exchange Instant Messaging) From owner-jdev@jabber.org Fri Jul 23 12:40:07 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA09671 for jdev-list; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 12:40:07 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from mc-qout4.whowhere.com (mc-qout4.whowhere.com [209.185.123.18]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA09667 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 12:40:05 -0500 Received: from Unknown/Local ([?.?.?.?]) by my-deja.com; Fri Jul 23 09:39:51 1999 To: jdev@jabber.org Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 09:39:51 -0700 From: "Thomas D. Charron" Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sent-Mail: off X-Mailer: MailCity Service Subject: Re: [JDEV] jabbertransport quirk? X-Sender-Ip: 206.50.182.6 Organization: My Deja Email (http://www.my-deja.com:80) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org Exactly what I needed to know.. My version of the jabber client perl module is nearly complete then.. I ended up naming them as Net::Jabber::Client and Net::Jabber::ClientCon.. --- Thomas Charron On Fri, 23 Jul 1999 11:41:32 Jeremie wrote: >> Hrm.. I know what you where talking about now.. So the from has to >> be an attribute of the tag, and not a seperate tag in and of >> itself, correct? > >Only if you want to do a multi-client connection, yes. Otherwise it's >ignored. > >Jer > > --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- Share what you know. Learn what you don't. From owner-jdev@jabber.org Fri Jul 23 12:48:30 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA09801 for jdev-list; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 12:48:30 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from mc-qout4.whowhere.com (mc-qout4.whowhere.com [209.185.123.18]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA09797 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 12:48:27 -0500 Received: from Unknown/Local ([?.?.?.?]) by my-deja.com; Fri Jul 23 09:47:48 1999 To: "Jabber Development" Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 09:47:48 -0700 From: "Thomas D. Charron" Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sent-Mail: off X-Mailer: MailCity Service Subject: [JDEV] Win32 Native etherx and jabbertransport.. X-Sender-Ip: 206.50.182.6 Organization: My Deja Email (http://www.my-deja.com:80) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org If anyone would like Win32 native compiles of etherx and jabbertransport, please let me know.. They are roughly 2 megs total, and work. I'm still working on why the jabber client doesn;t quite run cleanly, and will let you know when I've completed that end. If all goes well, I will also attempt to compile cabbar with the Win32 GTK package, and that can be tested all to heck. This will mean that, minus kabber, ALL of the clients should be available for Win32. Don't worry, I'm not forgetting about the native Win32 client, I'm just trying to get stuff out so people can start breaking what we already have.. ;-P --- Thomas Charron --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- Share what you know. Learn what you don't. From owner-jdev@jabber.org Fri Jul 23 12:51:28 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA09839 for jdev-list; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 12:51:28 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from mc-qout4.whowhere.com (mc-qout4.whowhere.com [209.185.123.18]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA09836 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 12:51:26 -0500 Received: from Unknown/Local ([?.?.?.?]) by my-deja.com; Fri Jul 23 09:50:44 1999 To: jdev@jabber.org Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 09:50:44 -0700 From: "Thomas D. Charron" Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sent-Mail: off X-Mailer: MailCity Service Subject: Re: [JDEV] Fwd: [BUGTRAQ] First reflections on security of MSN Messenger X-Sender-Ip: 206.50.182.6 Organization: My Deja Email (http://www.my-deja.com:80) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org Can anyone confirm as to if the libfaim, etc libs clients still connect? This could be bad for our AIM AND Icq transports if AOL is going to begin starting to take this approach.. --- Thomas Charron On Fri, 23 Jul 1999 11:52:31 Vijay Saraswat wrote: >> Sounds almost like MSN's client also spoke AIM's protocol natively? >> It also sounds like AOL isn't too happy allowing others to utilize their >> AIM service w/o using their client, but there's not much they can do since >> it's their customer's choice to use a client that utilizes the >> reverse-engineered AIM protocol. >> > >Yes, MSN Messenger does not speak TOC. It speaks OSCAR. During the login sequence it >identifies itself as "Compatible client", whereas AOL IM clients distributed by AOL >identify themselves as clients such as "AOL Instant Messenger (TM), Version >2.1.1236/WIN32". Apparently, AOL has tweaked their servers so that "Compatible client"s >are no longer compatible :) > >I wouldnt be surprised to see this hit the courts very soon. > >> >> One of the benifits of having the transport bits happening on the server >> side is so that when something like this happens and they "tweak" their >> servers to reject clones, the tweak can be fixed and transport replaced >> without affecting or reinstalling all of the clients :) >> > >Sure, having central mediating servers helps. > >Best, >Vijay > > --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- Share what you know. Learn what you don't. From owner-jdev@jabber.org Fri Jul 23 12:53:23 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA09906 for jdev-list; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 12:53:23 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from mc-qout4.whowhere.com (mc-qout4.whowhere.com [209.185.123.18]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA09902 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 12:53:20 -0500 Received: from Unknown/Local ([?.?.?.?]) by my-deja.com; Fri Jul 23 09:52:45 1999 To: jdev@jabber.org Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 09:52:45 -0700 From: "Thomas D. Charron" Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sent-Mail: off X-Mailer: MailCity Service Subject: Re: [JDEV] Microsoft Instant Messaging announcements X-Sender-Ip: 206.50.182.6 Organization: My Deja Email (http://www.my-deja.com:80) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org I agree that it's a good thing, and it will be even better for jabber now that they have publically released a cross-network client, which will start people believing in a more universal IM system.. Unfortionatly, I think their client sucks BIG eggs.. --- Thomas Charron On Fri, 23 Jul 1999 12:29:29 Jeremie wrote: >VERY interesting stuff here, and I think it's a great step! The most >important thing to note is that Microsoft is developing on an open >protocol, currently RVP and in the future the IMPP specification. This >allows us to both write a Jabber transport to speak to any of Microsoft's >IM products(clients and servers), as well as build an alternate Jabber >server that speaks RVP for Microsoft client software to connect to. > > >---------- Forwarded message ---------- >Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 08:27:32 -0700 >From: "Sonu Aggarwal (Exchange)" >To: "'impp@iastate.edu'" >Subject: Microsoft Instant Messaging announcements > >As you may have noticed, there was a flurry of announcements yesterday >regarding Microsoft's new MSN Messenger service, unveiled midnight >Wednesday. Since many of you have asked for clarification, I thought I'd >describe the relevant details for the list. > >Microsoft will have two IM offerings - the MSN Messenger Service, targeted >at the mass market (like AOL, ICQ, etc.), and the Exchange Instant Messaging >product, which will be a component of "Platinum" - the next version of >Exchange, targeted at the corporate space. The MSN client will be the >client for both offerings. The Exchange Instant Messaging product has a >federated server architecture and is based on the open and extensible RVP >protocol (which is indicative of the sort of protocol the IMPP WG intends to >design), while the MSN Messenger Service uses a different, MSN-specific >protocol that is optimized for a large, centralized deployment like MSN. >Microsoft is committed to moving both offerings to the IMPP protocol as and >when it emerges. The announcements refer to the fact that AOL has so far >lacked involvement in IMPP efforts. > >The MSN Messenger service is available to anyone with a Hotmail account >(which is free). The MSN client can interop with AOL - one can have AOL >contacts, Hotmail contacts, and RVP contacts on the same contact list >concurrently. The client logs the user into each service independently and >communicates with the corresponding server-specific protocol to each >service; there are no server gateways. > >Hope that clarifies. > > >Sonu > >(Program Manager - Exchange Instant Messaging) > > --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- Share what you know. Learn what you don't. From owner-jdev@jabber.org Fri Jul 23 13:10:36 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA10240 for jdev-list; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 13:10:36 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from uruguay.pathwaynet.com (exim@uruguay.pathwaynet.com [216.46.203.34]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA10237 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 13:10:34 -0500 Received: from [216.46.205.77] (helo=p205-77.gv.pathwaynet.com) by uruguay.pathwaynet.com with esmtp (Exim 3.02 #1) id 117iq7-0006Wl-00 for jdev@jabber.org; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 13:10:32 -0400 Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 13:10:25 -0400 (EDT) From: Jeremy Wise X-Sender: jwise@speedy.wise To: jdev@jabber.org Subject: Re: [JDEV] Fwd: [BUGTRAQ] First reflections on security of MSN Messenger In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org As long as there are people actively sniffing the packets, and the transport mimics those packets to the byte, the servers can't know the difference. The biggest problem for them is that they have to maintain backwards compatibility. GnomeICU uses the same protocol as ICQ99a. That means GnomeICU will work fine until/unless they drop support for ICQ99a - not going to happen for a while. I've never used AIM, but the same should be true. Later, Jeremy Wise +----------------------------------------------------------------+ | Jeremy Wise Make every effort to enter | | jwise@pathwaynet.com through the narrow door, | | ICQ #4664755 because many, I tell you, | | http://www.pathwaynet.com/~jwise will try to enter and will | | http://gnomeicu.gdev.net/ not be able to. (Luke 13:24) | +----------------------------------------------------------------+ On Fri, 23 Jul 1999, Thomas D. Charron wrote: > Can anyone confirm as to if the libfaim, etc libs clients still connect? > > This could be bad for our AIM AND Icq transports if AOL is going to begin starting to take this approach.. > > --- > Thomas Charron > > On Fri, 23 Jul 1999 11:52:31 Vijay Saraswat wrote: > >> Sounds almost like MSN's client also spoke AIM's protocol natively? > >> It also sounds like AOL isn't too happy allowing others to utilize their > >> AIM service w/o using their client, but there's not much they can do since > >> it's their customer's choice to use a client that utilizes the > >> reverse-engineered AIM protocol. > >> > > > >Yes, MSN Messenger does not speak TOC. It speaks OSCAR. During the login sequence it > >identifies itself as "Compatible client", whereas AOL IM clients distributed by AOL > >identify themselves as clients such as "AOL Instant Messenger (TM), Version > >2.1.1236/WIN32". Apparently, AOL has tweaked their servers so that "Compatible client"s > >are no longer compatible :) > > > >I wouldnt be surprised to see this hit the courts very soon. > > > >> > >> One of the benifits of having the transport bits happening on the server > >> side is so that when something like this happens and they "tweak" their > >> servers to reject clones, the tweak can be fixed and transport replaced > >> without affecting or reinstalling all of the clients :) > >> > > > >Sure, having central mediating servers helps. > > > >Best, > >Vijay > > > > > > > --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- > Share what you know. Learn what you don't. > From owner-jdev@jabber.org Fri Jul 23 14:04:10 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA10570 for jdev-list; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 14:04:10 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from front1.grolier.fr (front1.grolier.fr [194.158.96.51]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA10565 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 14:04:00 -0500 Received: from lejade (telehouse-229-20.club-internet.fr [195.36.229.20]) by front1.grolier.fr (8.9.3/No_Relay+No_Spam_MGC990224) with SMTP id UAA20117 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 20:03:30 +0200 (MET DST) Message-Id: <199907231803.UAA20117@front1.grolier.fr> X-Sender: lejade@mail.club-internet.fr (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.1 Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 20:09:26 +0200 To: jdev@jabber.org From: Olivier Lejade Subject: RE: [JDEV] artwork/UI In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org At 10:04 23/07/99 -0500, Jer wrote: >What would REALLY be cool is to build a Jabber client and server module >that offer similiar functionality. Yes, i agree. Odigo is way cool and I love the UI. On the other hand it needs 32 MB RAM. Isn't that a little too much just for a messenger client ? O. From owner-jdev@jabber.org Fri Jul 23 15:27:34 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA11144 for jdev-list; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 15:27:34 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from nautilus.shore.net (nautilus.shore.net [207.244.124.104]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA11141 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 15:27:30 -0500 Received: from pm4-3-180.port.shore.net (brandon) [207.244.110.180] by nautilus.shore.net with smtp (Exim) for jdev@jabber.org id 117kyX-0000AV-00; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 15:27:23 -0400 Message-ID: <004c01bed541$c2b53a80$01010101@brandon> From: "Shore.Net" To: References: <199907231803.UAA20117@front1.grolier.fr> Subject: [JDEV] Big Bad AOL Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 15:29:50 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org Anyone notice that AOL shut off AIM access in response to MS? The FAIM lib doesn't work anymore... I'm trying to poke around to see how they are discrimating between a FAIM logon and their program. Anyone figure out how to fake them out? -Brandon From owner-jdev@jabber.org Sat Jul 24 00:46:09 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA13761 for jdev-list; Sat, 24 Jul 1999 00:46:09 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from mail.wireweb.net (mail.wireweb.net [216.3.229.9]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA13758 for ; Sat, 24 Jul 1999 00:46:05 -0500 Received: by mail.wireweb.net from localhost (router,SLMail V3.2); Fri, 23 Jul 1999 23:39:43 -0500 Received: by mail.wireweb.net from box5.net (216.3.228.114::mail daemon; unverified,SLMail V3.2); Fri, 23 Jul 1999 23:39:42 -0500 Message-ID: <3799436C.62DA1F32@box5.net> Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 23:39:08 -0500 From: Temas X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.5-15 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: jdev@jabber.org Subject: Re: [JDEV] Big Bad AOL References: <199907231803.UAA20117@front1.grolier.fr> <004c01bed541$c2b53a80$01010101@brandon> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SLUIDL: 8459F611-416C11D3-BB350040-33537EE5 Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org I'm currently working on reimplementing libfaim to get it reworking. It's odd that it can discriminate because libfaim uses the protocol almost to the "T". I'm going to be working a lot with AIM this weekend, working on a gnome client and reworking libfaim (especially now, stupid AOL). I would be very happy to help work with the AIM group when the system is restructured to temas. Later, I'll let you know what I come up with. --Thomas "Temas" Muldowney "Shore.Net" wrote: > > Anyone notice that AOL shut off AIM access in response to MS? > > The FAIM lib doesn't work anymore... I'm trying to poke around to see how > they are discrimating between a FAIM logon and their program. > > Anyone figure out how to fake them out? > > -Brandon From owner-jdev@jabber.org Sat Jul 24 00:57:16 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA13862 for jdev-list; Sat, 24 Jul 1999 00:57:16 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from mail.wireweb.net (mail.wireweb.net [216.3.229.9]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA13859 for ; Sat, 24 Jul 1999 00:57:12 -0500 Received: by mail.wireweb.net from localhost (router,SLMail V3.2); Fri, 23 Jul 1999 23:50:53 -0500 Received: by mail.wireweb.net from box5.net (216.3.228.114::mail daemon; unverified,SLMail V3.2); Fri, 23 Jul 1999 23:50:48 -0500 Message-ID: <37994606.4DBFA705@box5.net> Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 23:50:14 -0500 From: Temas X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.5-15 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: jdev@jabber.org Subject: [JDEV] [Fwd: [faim-devel-93] I suppose you want libfaim fixed now that AOL broke it....] Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------FE5617398746BBB40F82D089" X-SLUIDL: 8459F64C-416C11D3-BB350040-33537EE5 Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------FE5617398746BBB40F82D089 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --------------FE5617398746BBB40F82D089 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: Delivered-To: temas@box5.net Received: (qmail 27843 invoked from network); 23 Jul 1999 17:42:32 -0000 Received: from unix.tamu.edu (HELO fox.tamu.edu) (root@128.194.103.25) by box5.net with SMTP; 23 Jul 1999 17:42:32 -0000 Received: from mail.tamu.edu (mail.tamu.edu [128.194.103.38]) by fox.tamu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA26605 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 12:49:19 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by mail.tamu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA03686 for tjm5188@unix.tamu.edu; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 12:49:19 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mail.n.ml.org (qmailr@narnia.idsi.net [208.195.228.60]) by mail.tamu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA03628 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 12:49:11 -0500 (CDT) Received: (qmail 26240 invoked by alias); 23 Jul 1999 12:46:59 -0000 Mailing-List: contact faim-devel-help@n.ml.org; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk X-No-Archive: yes Reply-To: faim-devel@n.ml.org Delivered-To: mailing list faim-devel@n.ml.org Received: (qmail 26235 invoked from network); 23 Jul 1999 12:46:54 -0000 Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 18:52:07 +0000 (UTC) X-PH: V4.4.7@mail.tamu.edu From: Adam Fritzler To: faim-devel@n.ml.org Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: MULTIPART/MIXED; BOUNDARY="-1513193453-1315441997-932755927=:726" Subject: [faim-devel-93] I suppose you want libfaim fixed now that AOL broke it.... X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text, while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools. Send mail to mime@docserver.cac.washington.edu for more info. ---1513193453-1315441997-932755927=:726 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII And so I did. Easy fix. In the BOS redirect, they now send the IP as "xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx:xxxx" instead of just the IP. Attached is a drop-in replacement for libfaim-snap25apr1999's aim_conn.c. Copied into naims libfaim/, recompiled and it works just fine again. Thanks to Eric Peyton (author of the MacOS X libfaim port) for pointing out the problem. Have fun... mid --- Adam Fritzler { mid@auk.cx, afritz@iname.com} http://www.auk.cx/~mid/ "Behold the power of cheese." -- National Dairy Council ---1513193453-1315441997-932755927=:726 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; name="aim_conn.c" Content-Transfer-Encoding: BASE64 Content-ID: Content-Description: Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="aim_conn.c" DQovKg0KICogIGFpbV9jb25uLmMNCiAqDQogKiBEb2VzIGFsbCB0aGlzIGds b3Jpb3VzbHkgbmlmdHkgY29ubmVjdGlvbiBoYW5kbGluZyBzdHVmZi4uLg0K ICoNCiAqLw0KDQojaW5jbHVkZSAiYWltLmgiDQoNCnZvaWQgYWltX2Nvbm5y c3Qodm9pZCkNCnsNCiAgaW50IGk7DQogIGZvciAoaSA9IDA7IGkgPCBBSU1f Q09OTl9NQVg7IGkrKykNCiAgICB7DQogICAgICBhaW1fY29ubnNbaV0uZmQg PSAtMTsNCiAgICAgIGFpbV9jb25uc1tpXS50eXBlID0gLTE7DQogICAgICBh aW1fY29ubnNbaV0uc3RhdHVzID0gMDsNCiAgICB9DQoNCn0NCg0Kc3RydWN0 IGFpbV9jb25uX3QgKmFpbV9jb25uX2dldG5leHQodm9pZCkNCnsNCiAgaW50 IGk7DQogIGZvciAoaT0wO2k8QUlNX0NPTk5fTUFYO2krKykNCiAgICBpZiAo YWltX2Nvbm5zW2ldLmZkID09IC0xKQ0KICAgICAgcmV0dXJuICYoYWltX2Nv 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---1513193453-1315441997-932755927=:726-- --------------FE5617398746BBB40F82D089-- From owner-jdev@jabber.org Sat Jul 24 01:08:46 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA14021 for jdev-list; Sat, 24 Jul 1999 01:08:46 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from katie.tranzoa.com (root@sdn-ar-003waseatP067.dialsprint.net [168.191.231.51]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA14018 for ; Sat, 24 Jul 1999 01:08:40 -0500 Received: from tara.tranzoa.com (IDENT:postfix@tara.tranzoa.com [10.1.1.66]) by katie.tranzoa.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA03346 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 22:08:32 -0700 Received: by tara.tranzoa.com (Postfix, from userid 0) id 473DBE682B; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 22:08:25 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 22:08:25 -0700 From: Scott Robinson To: jdev@jabber.org Subject: Re: [JDEV] Big Bad AOL Message-ID: <19990723220824.A1539@tara.tranzoa.com> References: <199907231803.UAA20117@front1.grolier.fr> <004c01bed541$c2b53a80$01010101@brandon> <3799436C.62DA1F32@box5.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary=2oS5YaxWCcQjTEyO; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.6i In-Reply-To: <3799436C.62DA1F32@box5.net>; from Temas on Fri, Jul 23, 1999 at 11:39:08PM -0500 X-Disclaimer: The contents of this e-mail, unless otherwise stated, are the property of David Ryland Scott Robinson. Copyright (C)1999, All Rights Reservered. X-Operating-System: Linux tara.tranzoa.com 2.2.5-15 Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org --2oS5YaxWCcQjTEyO Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable According to cnn.com, AOL discrimates by checking the client identification from OSCAR. They now deny "Compatible AIM". Microsoft has written a patch for their client and now (probably) identify themselves the same as any other OSCAR client. I'm talking out my butt here. Don't trust me nor cnn.com. I'm just passing hersay. Scott. * Temas translated into ASCII [Fri, Jul 23, 1999 at 11:39:08PM -0500][<3799= 436C.62DA1F32@box5.net>] > I'm currently working on reimplementing libfaim to get it reworking.=20 > It's odd that it can discriminate because libfaim uses the protocol > almost to the "T". I'm going to be working a lot with AIM this weekend, > working on a gnome client and reworking libfaim (especially now, stupid > AOL). I would be very happy to help work with the AIM group when the > system is restructured to temas. Later, I'll let you know what I come > up with. >=20 > --Thomas "Temas" Muldowney >=20 > "Shore.Net" wrote: > >=20 > > Anyone notice that AOL shut off AIM access in response to MS? > >=20 > > The FAIM lib doesn't work anymore... I'm trying to poke around to see h= ow > > they are discrimating between a FAIM logon and their program. > >=20 > > Anyone figure out how to fake them out? > >=20 > > -Brandon --2oS5YaxWCcQjTEyO Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v0.9.8 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iEYEARECAAYFAjeZSkgACgkQ1MPeBfASdFCL2ACZAUvo0TPS6QbxTeIuhI9yaHgx vpsAn2/5lza60yVa7xtMIiYqd2T6FIO/ =vkqD -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --2oS5YaxWCcQjTEyO-- From owner-jdev@jabber.org Sat Jul 24 11:05:24 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA16550 for jdev-list; Sat, 24 Jul 1999 11:05:24 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from chmls05.mediaone.net (ne.mediaone.net [24.128.1.70]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA16547 for ; Sat, 24 Jul 1999 11:05:22 -0500 Received: from me (brandontwo.ne.mediaone.net [24.128.194.21]) by chmls05.mediaone.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA00665 for ; Sat, 24 Jul 1999 11:05:20 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <003301bed5e5$ce0650a0$15c28018@ne.mediaone.net> From: "Brandon Shalton" To: References: <199907231803.UAA20117@front1.grolier.fr> <004c01bed541$c2b53a80$01010101@brandon> <3799436C.62DA1F32@box5.net> Subject: Re: [JDEV] Big Bad AOL Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1999 11:04:18 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org Seems like AOL removed whatever restriction that was in place. The unpatched FAIM lib connects now. Very odd. Maybe they figured it was more trouble than what its worth to be restrictive. -brandon From owner-jdev@jabber.org Sun Jul 25 17:06:27 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA23750 for jdev-list; Sun, 25 Jul 1999 17:06:27 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from mc-qout4.whowhere.com (mc-qout4.whowhere.com [209.185.123.18]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA23747 for ; Sun, 25 Jul 1999 17:06:24 -0500 Received: from Unknown/Local ([?.?.?.?]) by my-deja.com; Sun Jul 25 14:05:38 1999 To: "Jabber Development" Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 14:05:38 -0700 From: "Thomas D. Charron" Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sent-Mail: off X-Mailer: MailCity Service Subject: Fwd: [JDEV] [Fwd: [faim-devel-93] I suppose you want libfaim fixed now that AOL broke it....] X-Sender-Ip: 205.161.31.49 Organization: My Deja Email (http://www.my-deja.com:80) Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=_-=_-FDEFGHDHIDBCDAAA" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. You need a MIME compliant mail reader to completely decode it. --=_-=_-FDEFGHDHIDBCDAAA Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Length: 290 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --- Thomas Charron --------- Forwarded Message --------- DATE: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 23:50:14 From: Temas To: jdev@jabber.org --------- End Forwarded Message --------- --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- Share what you know. Learn what you don't. --=_-=_-FDEFGHDHIDBCDAAA Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Length: 0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --=_-=_-FDEFGHDHIDBCDAAA-- From owner-jdev@jabber.org Mon Jul 26 09:16:50 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA27828 for jdev-list; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 09:16:50 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from mc-qout4.whowhere.com (mc-qout4.whowhere.com [209.185.123.18]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA27825 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 09:16:47 -0500 Received: from Unknown/Local ([?.?.?.?]) by my-deja.com; Mon Jul 26 06:16:04 1999 To: jdev@jabber.org Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 06:16:04 -0700 From: "Thomas D. Charron" Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sent-Mail: off X-Mailer: MailCity Service Subject: Re: Fwd: [JDEV] [Fwd: [faim-devel-93] I suppose you want libfaim fixed now that AOL broke it....] X-Sender-Ip: 206.50.182.5 Organization: My Deja Email (http://www.my-deja.com:80) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org Hrm.. I wonder how that happened.. I WAS forqwarding it to someone else.. I must have hit a checkbox I didn't mean to.. --- Thomas Charron On Sun, 25 Jul 1999 14:05:38 Thomas D. Charron wrote: >--- >Thomas Charron > >--------- Forwarded Message --------- > >DATE: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 23:50:14 >From: Temas >To: jdev@jabber.org > > >--------- End Forwarded Message --------- > > > >--== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- >Share what you know. Learn what you don't. --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- Share what you know. Learn what you don't. From owner-jdev@jabber.org Mon Jul 26 18:55:39 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA31006 for jdev-list; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 18:55:39 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from web601.yahoomail.com (web2004.mail.yahoo.com [128.11.68.204]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA31003 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 18:55:37 -0500 Message-ID: <19990726225606.11602.rocketmail@web601.yahoomail.com> Received: from [207.8.1.21] by web2004.mail.yahoo.com; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 18:56:06 EDT Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 18:56:06 -0400 (EDT) From: Sean McCullough Subject: [JDEV] XML protocol question To: jdev@jabber.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org I've been trying to implement a Jabber protocol stack in java using the org.xml.sax parser package. (this is not part of the JabberBeans project btw) Is there any reason not to wrap top-level elements in the Jabber client-server protocol in full xml document tags (aside from the size increase)? I'm running into some design problems where I can't take advantage of SAX/DOM the way I want to. I'm trying to read in a series of packets, blocking the requesting thread when necessary. Currently I'm using the SAX DocuemntHandler callback methods to figure out when a packet is done reading/parsing so I can wake up the reader thread if it's blocking. This is getting tricky because I can't decide if the PacketReader should interpret every element (in which case it must know more about Packet subclasses than it should (ick)), or if Packet classes should parse their own content (meaning Packet must implement DocumentHandler (ick)). I'd rather use the DOM with Sun's JavaBean support, but it's not going to finish parsing anything in Jabber session until it reaches the outer element which (I believe) currently means your session is over :-/ so the example at http://www.jabber.org/download/latest/doc/protocol/client2server.txt would look like: jeremie Ph0niks jabalot jeremie test someone jenny jeremie safdsgh@asdfg.asdfasdf sdfa 1 Did you see that? asdgf asdfkjasgoijqwert asdgaldgjkas ... Am I going about this the wrong way? I know it looks like I'm asking for a lot of unnecessary overhead but I can't think of a good way to use the available XML tools without it. I suppose a workaround would be to read past the opening jabber element before handing the InputStream over to the DOM, but that would probably throw exceptions for the lack of tag and the unexpected ending Has anyone else tried to use DOM or SAX to implement an XML protocol? I haven't looked at IBM's Java XML parser yet so it might better suit what I'm trying to do than Sun's parser. -Sean McCullough _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From owner-jdev@jabber.org Mon Jul 26 19:42:04 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA31282 for jdev-list; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 19:42:04 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from zeus.kia.net ([205.252.89.69]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA31279 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 19:42:02 -0500 Received: from scylla (client-151-200-118-50.bellatlantic.net [151.200.118.50]) by zeus.kia.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) with SMTP id TAA22858 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 19:49:00 -0400 (EDT) From: "Patrick McCuller" To: Subject: RE: [JDEV] XML protocol question Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 19:41:09 -0400 Message-ID: <006701bed7c0$5672a840$3276c897@scylla> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <19990726225606.11602.rocketmail@web601.yahoomail.com> Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org I am working with JabberBeans and intend to check in the first fully functional version within a day or so. I use an XML parser in Java to do the trick, naturally, and here's what worked for me: I fully read the packet off the line, build a String, and pass it over to an XML-aware ProtocolConsumer, which understand the Jabber protocol and builds JabberBean Packets. From here it gets passed to an XML-parser aware class which currently relies on IBM's XML4J, but could be easily switched to something else if need be. This XMLParser class does a simple check to see whether it is parsable by an Non-Validating (for the time being) parser (using DOM, not SAX.) If it is not, it attempts to make it so by ap-or-prepending any required information. So far, I have found that simply prepending "" type identifiers is all it needs to create a Document object. JabberBeans passes this back to the ProtocolConsumer which builds a Packet (MessagePacket,RosterPacket,StatusPacket, etc.) from the Document. Thus, this: > > jeremie > test > becomes this: > > > jeremie > test > Does this help at all? The JabberBeans code will go in very soon and I can send it to you ahead of time if you are interested. Patrick McCuller > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-jdev@jabber.org [mailto:owner-jdev@jabber.org]On Behalf Of > Sean McCullough > Sent: Monday, July 26, 1999 6:56 PM > To: jdev@jabber.org > Subject: [JDEV] XML protocol question > > > I've been trying to implement a Jabber protocol stack in java using the > org.xml.sax parser package. (this is not part of the JabberBeans > project btw) > > Is there any reason not to wrap top-level elements in the Jabber > client-server protocol in full xml document tags (aside from the size > increase)? I'm running into some design problems where I can't take > advantage of SAX/DOM the way I want to. I'm trying to read in a series > of packets, blocking the requesting thread when necessary. Currently > I'm using the SAX DocuemntHandler callback methods to figure out when a > packet is done reading/parsing so I can wake up the reader thread if > it's blocking. This is getting tricky because I can't decide if the > PacketReader should interpret every element (in which case it must know > more about Packet subclasses than it should (ick)), or if Packet > classes should parse their own content (meaning Packet must implement > DocumentHandler (ick)). I'd rather use the DOM with Sun's JavaBean > support, but it's not going to finish parsing anything in Jabber > session until it reaches the outer element which (I believe) > currently means your session is over :-/ > > so the example at > http://www.jabber.org/download/latest/doc/protocol/client2server.txt > > would look like: > > > > > > jeremie > Ph0niks > jabalot > > > > > > > > jeremie > test > > > > > > > someone > jenny > jeremie > safdsgh@asdfg.asdfasdf > sdfa > 1 > Did you see that? > asdgf asdfkjasgoijqwert asdgaldgjkas > > > > > ... > > > Am I going about this the wrong way? I know it looks like I'm asking > for a lot of unnecessary overhead but I can't think of a good way to > use the available XML tools without it. > > I suppose a workaround would be to read past the opening jabber element > before handing the InputStream over to the DOM, but that would > probably throw exceptions for the lack of tag and the > unexpected ending > > Has anyone else tried to use DOM or SAX to implement an XML protocol? > I haven't looked at IBM's Java XML parser yet so it might better suit > what I'm trying to do than Sun's parser. > > -Sean McCullough > _________________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com > > From owner-jdev@jabber.org Tue Jul 27 09:20:31 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA02559 for jdev-list; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 09:20:31 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from mc-qout4.whowhere.com (mc-qout4.whowhere.com [209.185.123.18]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA02556 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 09:20:28 -0500 Received: from Unknown/Local ([?.?.?.?]) by my-deja.com; Tue Jul 27 06:19:53 1999 To: "Jabber Development" Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 06:19:53 -0700 From: "Thomas D. Charron" Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sent-Mail: off X-Mailer: MailCity Service Subject: [JDEV] JabberBeans.. X-Sender-Ip: 206.50.182.6 Organization: My Deja Email (http://www.my-deja.com:80) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org I've got a question that I've been DYING to ask.. Is there any particular reason why the JabberBeans package needs to include the full jar lib files within the main CVS tree? I'm only asking becouse those files are close to 2.5 Megs. Could they actually be branched off to a different tree, simply due to their size? At least for the libraries? --- Thomas Charron --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- Share what you know. Learn what you don't. From owner-jdev@jabber.org Tue Jul 27 09:53:55 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA02825 for jdev-list; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 09:53:55 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from mc-qout4.whowhere.com (mc-qout4.whowhere.com [209.185.123.18]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA02822 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 09:53:52 -0500 Received: from Unknown/Local ([?.?.?.?]) by my-deja.com; Tue Jul 27 06:53:12 1999 To: "Jabber Development" Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 06:53:12 -0700 From: "Thomas D. Charron" Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sent-Mail: off X-Mailer: MailCity Service Subject: [JDEV] IM software discussion.. X-Sender-Ip: 206.50.182.6 Organization: My Deja Email (http://www.my-deja.com:80) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org I would like to point people to http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=99/07/27/0724205&mode=thread over at slashdot. Several people are basically pleading for us to finish.. ;-P Figured it'd be good for the developers to follow up on some of the comments... --- Thomas Charron --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- Share what you know. Learn what you don't. From owner-jdev@jabber.org Tue Jul 27 11:27:39 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA03460 for jdev-list; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 11:27:39 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from web601.yahoomail.com (web2003.mail.yahoo.com [128.11.68.203]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA03453 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 11:27:34 -0500 Message-ID: <19990727152728.17656.rocketmail@web601.yahoomail.com> Received: from [207.8.1.21] by web2003.mail.yahoo.com; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 08:27:28 PDT Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 08:27:28 -0700 (PDT) From: Sean McCullough Subject: RE: [JDEV] XML protocol question To: jdev@jabber.org, jdev@jabber.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org Ooooh sounds like I'll wait for that CVS update! I was just getting a little anxious ;-) I'm actually trying to solve a very similar problem at work so this was kind of an experiment for me as well. I'm looking forward to using your additions! -Sean McCullough --- Patrick McCuller wrote: > > I am working with JabberBeans and intend to check > in the first fully > functional version within a day or so. I use an XML > parser in Java to do > the trick, naturally, and here's what worked for me: > > I fully read the packet off the line, build a > String, and pass it over to > an XML-aware ProtocolConsumer, which understand the > Jabber protocol and > builds JabberBean Packets. From here it gets passed > to an XML-parser aware > class which currently relies on IBM's XML4J, but > could be easily switched to > something else if need be. This XMLParser class does > a simple check to see > whether it is parsable by an Non-Validating (for the > time being) parser > (using DOM, not SAX.) If it is not, it attempts to > make it so by > ap-or-prepending any required information. So far, I > have found that simply > prepending "" type identifiers > is all it needs to create > a Document object. JabberBeans passes this back to > the ProtocolConsumer > which builds a Packet > (MessagePacket,RosterPacket,StatusPacket, etc.) from > the Document. > > Thus, this: > > > > > jeremie > > test > > > > becomes this: > > > > > > > jeremie > > test > > > > > Does this help at all? The JabberBeans code will go > in very soon and I can > send it to you ahead of time if you are interested. > > > Patrick McCuller > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-jdev@jabber.org > [mailto:owner-jdev@jabber.org]On Behalf Of > > Sean McCullough > > Sent: Monday, July 26, 1999 6:56 PM > > To: jdev@jabber.org > > Subject: [JDEV] XML protocol question > > > > > > I've been trying to implement a Jabber protocol > stack in java using the > > org.xml.sax parser package. (this is not part of > the JabberBeans > > project btw) > > > > Is there any reason not to wrap top-level elements > in the Jabber > > client-server protocol in full xml document tags > (aside from the size > > increase)? I'm running into some design problems > where I can't take > > advantage of SAX/DOM the way I want to. I'm > trying to read in a series > > of packets, blocking the requesting thread when > necessary. Currently > > I'm using the SAX DocuemntHandler callback methods > to figure out when a > > packet is done reading/parsing so I can wake up > the reader thread if > > it's blocking. This is getting tricky because I > can't decide if the > > PacketReader should interpret every element (in > which case it must know > > more about Packet subclasses than it should > (ick)), or if Packet > > classes should parse their own content (meaning > Packet must implement > > DocumentHandler (ick)). I'd rather use the DOM > with Sun's JavaBean > > support, but it's not going to finish parsing > anything in Jabber > > session until it reaches the outer > element which (I believe) > > currently means your session is over :-/ > > > > so the example at > > > http://www.jabber.org/download/latest/doc/protocol/client2server.txt > > > > would look like: > > > > > > protocol="19990324"> > > > > > > jeremie > > Ph0niks > > jabalot > > > > > > > > > > protocol="19990324"> > > > > > > jeremie > > test > > > > > > > > protocol="19990324"> > > > > > > someone > > jenny > > jeremie > > name='HAhah!'>safdsgh@asdfg.asdfasdf > > sdfa > > 1 > > Did you see that? > > asdgf asdfkjasgoijqwert > asdgaldgjkas > > > > > > > > > > ... > > > > > > Am I going about this the wrong way? I know it > looks like I'm asking > > for a lot of unnecessary overhead but I can't > think of a good way to > > use the available XML tools without it. > > > > I suppose a workaround would be to read past the > opening jabber element > > before handing the InputStream over to the DOM, > but that would > > probably throw exceptions for the lack of ?> tag and the > > unexpected ending > > > > Has anyone else tried to use DOM or SAX to > implement an XML protocol? > > I haven't looked at IBM's Java XML parser yet so > it might better suit > > what I'm trying to do than Sun's parser. > > > > -Sean McCullough > > > _________________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Get your free @yahoo.com address at > http://mail.yahoo.com > > > > > > _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From owner-jdev@jabber.org Tue Jul 27 11:27:37 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA03459 for jdev-list; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 11:27:37 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from web601.yahoomail.com (web2003.mail.yahoo.com [128.11.68.203]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA03452 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 11:27:34 -0500 Message-ID: <19990727152728.17656.rocketmail@web601.yahoomail.com> Received: from [207.8.1.21] by web2003.mail.yahoo.com; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 08:27:28 PDT Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 08:27:28 -0700 (PDT) From: Sean McCullough Subject: RE: [JDEV] XML protocol question To: jdev@jabber.org, jdev@jabber.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org Ooooh sounds like I'll wait for that CVS update! I was just getting a little anxious ;-) I'm actually trying to solve a very similar problem at work so this was kind of an experiment for me as well. I'm looking forward to using your additions! -Sean McCullough --- Patrick McCuller wrote: > > I am working with JabberBeans and intend to check > in the first fully > functional version within a day or so. I use an XML > parser in Java to do > the trick, naturally, and here's what worked for me: > > I fully read the packet off the line, build a > String, and pass it over to > an XML-aware ProtocolConsumer, which understand the > Jabber protocol and > builds JabberBean Packets. From here it gets passed > to an XML-parser aware > class which currently relies on IBM's XML4J, but > could be easily switched to > something else if need be. This XMLParser class does > a simple check to see > whether it is parsable by an Non-Validating (for the > time being) parser > (using DOM, not SAX.) If it is not, it attempts to > make it so by > ap-or-prepending any required information. So far, I > have found that simply > prepending "" type identifiers > is all it needs to create > a Document object. JabberBeans passes this back to > the ProtocolConsumer > which builds a Packet > (MessagePacket,RosterPacket,StatusPacket, etc.) from > the Document. > > Thus, this: > > > > > jeremie > > test > > > > becomes this: > > > > > > > jeremie > > test > > > > > Does this help at all? The JabberBeans code will go > in very soon and I can > send it to you ahead of time if you are interested. > > > Patrick McCuller > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-jdev@jabber.org > [mailto:owner-jdev@jabber.org]On Behalf Of > > Sean McCullough > > Sent: Monday, July 26, 1999 6:56 PM > > To: jdev@jabber.org > > Subject: [JDEV] XML protocol question > > > > > > I've been trying to implement a Jabber protocol > stack in java using the > > org.xml.sax parser package. (this is not part of > the JabberBeans > > project btw) > > > > Is there any reason not to wrap top-level elements > in the Jabber > > client-server protocol in full xml document tags > (aside from the size > > increase)? I'm running into some design problems > where I can't take > > advantage of SAX/DOM the way I want to. I'm > trying to read in a series > > of packets, blocking the requesting thread when > necessary. Currently > > I'm using the SAX DocuemntHandler callback methods > to figure out when a > > packet is done reading/parsing so I can wake up > the reader thread if > > it's blocking. This is getting tricky because I > can't decide if the > > PacketReader should interpret every element (in > which case it must know > > more about Packet subclasses than it should > (ick)), or if Packet > > classes should parse their own content (meaning > Packet must implement > > DocumentHandler (ick)). I'd rather use the DOM > with Sun's JavaBean > > support, but it's not going to finish parsing > anything in Jabber > > session until it reaches the outer > element which (I believe) > > currently means your session is over :-/ > > > > so the example at > > > http://www.jabber.org/download/latest/doc/protocol/client2server.txt > > > > would look like: > > > > > > protocol="19990324"> > > > > > > jeremie > > Ph0niks > > jabalot > > > > > > > > > > protocol="19990324"> > > > > > > jeremie > > test > > > > > > > > protocol="19990324"> > > > > > > someone > > jenny > > jeremie > > name='HAhah!'>safdsgh@asdfg.asdfasdf > > sdfa > > 1 > > Did you see that? > > asdgf asdfkjasgoijqwert > asdgaldgjkas > > > > > > > > > > ... > > > > > > Am I going about this the wrong way? I know it > looks like I'm asking > > for a lot of unnecessary overhead but I can't > think of a good way to > > use the available XML tools without it. > > > > I suppose a workaround would be to read past the > opening jabber element > > before handing the InputStream over to the DOM, > but that would > > probably throw exceptions for the lack of ?> tag and the > > unexpected ending > > > > Has anyone else tried to use DOM or SAX to > implement an XML protocol? > > I haven't looked at IBM's Java XML parser yet so > it might better suit > > what I'm trying to do than Sun's parser. > > > > -Sean McCullough > > > _________________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Get your free @yahoo.com address at > http://mail.yahoo.com > > > > > > _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From owner-jdev@jabber.org Tue Jul 27 15:07:41 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA05029 for jdev-list; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 15:07:41 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from mc-qout4.whowhere.com (mc-qout4.whowhere.com [209.185.123.18]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA05026 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 15:07:38 -0500 Received: from Unknown/Local ([?.?.?.?]) by my-deja.com; Tue Jul 27 12:06:56 1999 To: "Yoni Elhanani" , "Jabber Development" Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 12:06:56 -0700 From: "Thomas D. Charron" Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sent-Mail: off X-Expiredinmiddle: true X-Mailer: MailCity Service Subject: [JDEV] Re: Many Messaging protocol. X-Sender-Ip: 206.50.182.6 Organization: My Deja Email (http://www.my-deja.com:80) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org On Tue, 27 Jul 1999 21:50:53 Yoni Elhanani wrote: >"Thomas D. Charron" wrote: >1. Encryption >The ability to send encrypted data so it cannot be decrypted. (duh) Primary reasoning being the export restrictions.. No, raw packets would not be encrypted, merely the data WITHIN those packets.. >2. Friends List authorization. >Only allow certain people to know if I am online. >VERY IMPORTANT, as today, anyone can add me to his "contact list" >without my permission, >and know when i am online, offline, my IP, etc. >This is done with a certificate, which (generally) is the public key of >the reciever, signed by the issuer. Already done in the base jabber system.. This information is NOT presented unless you are both on each others lists.. >3. Personal data >Data such as my home phone number will be availible to people with the >above certificate. Again, already complete. The server side has 'security settings' for personally stored data on the server, aka, who can access what data.. >4. Session key. >Since the entire data will be encrypted with a session key, >it is assumed that the person sending the data is the same one that have >authorized before, >since he is the only other person who knows the session key. >this can save time on slow machines. This is where we would have to extend our current digisig module to actually encrypt the message text, vs just signing it. As far as I can tell, the only place we seem to part company is the level of encrypting EVERYTHING that goes thru.. Some things we simply cannot encrypt, since we are building a modular system that can communicate with other systems as well as ours. We could not really have encryption happen for the entire proccess for a converation between a jabber user and an AIM or ICQ user. >if i want to tell people on the jabber list about pump, >I'll have to send them my postscript file (or a tex file made by LyX, >which makes it messy). >So it would be better if i can link to it and just put it on an FTP >site. >Problem is i have nowhere to put it.... :-( I can throw it someplace tonight that they can link to, and let you know.. >If you can either >1. put it somewhere with public access >2. Tell me it's ok to send large postscript files to a mailing list >I'll be happy. --- Thomas Charron --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- Share what you know. Learn what you don't. From owner-jdev@jabber.org Tue Jul 27 15:39:27 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA05284 for jdev-list; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 15:39:27 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from zeus.kia.net ([205.252.89.69]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA05281 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 15:39:24 -0500 Received: from scylla (client-151-200-118-50.bellatlantic.net [151.200.118.50]) by zeus.kia.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) with SMTP id PAA25358 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 15:46:24 -0400 (EDT) From: "Patrick McCuller" To: Subject: RE: [JDEV] JabberBeans.. Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 15:38:15 -0400 Message-ID: <004f01bed867$91fd99e0$3276c897@scylla> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org The swingall.jar file? Not essential. JabberBeans is essentially a UI-less java software interface. GUI clients may use Swing, and whatever else they want, but JabberBeans does not really need it and it will be removed. However, I am building a client - separate from JabberBeans because JabberBeans is just a library - which does use Swing. Sean McCullough is also building something sort of in between - not quite JabberBeans, because it is GUI, but not a client, either. More like a toolkit. In addition, I think, to a client. Oh, BTW, there will be a 700K XML jar file replacing it, so you're not a total winner. :) Patrick > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-jdev@jabber.org [mailto:owner-jdev@jabber.org]On Behalf Of > Thomas D. Charron > Sent: Tuesday, July 27, 1999 9:20 AM > To: Jabber Development > Subject: [JDEV] JabberBeans.. > > > I've got a question that I've been DYING to ask.. Is there any > particular reason why the JabberBeans package needs to include > the full jar lib files within the main CVS tree? I'm only asking > becouse those files are close to 2.5 Megs. Could they actually > be branched off to a different tree, simply due to their size? > At least for the libraries? > --- > Thomas Charron > > > --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- > Share what you know. Learn what you don't. > From owner-jdev@jabber.org Tue Jul 27 15:51:59 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA05484 for jdev-list; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 15:51:59 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from mc-qout4.whowhere.com (mc-qout4.whowhere.com [209.185.123.18]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA05481 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 15:51:57 -0500 Received: from Unknown/Local ([?.?.?.?]) by my-deja.com; Tue Jul 27 12:51:16 1999 To: "Andrew Ward" , "Jabber Development" Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 12:51:16 -0700 From: "Thomas D. Charron" Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sent-Mail: off X-Mailer: MailCity Service Subject: [JDEV] Re: Just a thought... X-Sender-Ip: 206.50.182.6 Organization: My Deja Email (http://www.my-deja.com:80) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org My first question would be.. Why? The etherx routers talk to each other, why have a go-between server adding another level to it? --- Thomas Charron On Tue, 27 Jul 1999 12:12:06 Andrew Ward wrote: >Just something that occerred to me... what would be the major problems with >having master servers that connect every server to every other server? >Maybe by just being a bridge between the servers, and nothing else (client a >on server x wants to talk to client b on server y... server x sends a >request to master server, which responds with info on server y. server x >then sends the msg to server y). The master servers would also handle >search requests (forward the request to all servers, then forward the >results to the search originator). > >This's just something I brainstormed on for about 5 minutes, so it'll need a >*lot* of work, but I would like to know if it could be done. > >-- andyw > >p.s. sorry if this has already been looked at/discussed. > > >_______________________________________________________________ >Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com > --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- Share what you know. Learn what you don't. From owner-jdev@jabber.org Tue Jul 27 16:43:23 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA05963 for jdev-list; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 16:43:23 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from smtp3.mindspring.com (smtp3.mindspring.com [207.69.200.33]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA05960 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 16:43:18 -0500 Received: from q (pool-209-138-50-65.tmpa.grid.net [209.138.50.65]) by smtp3.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA16345 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 16:43:15 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <001a01bed871$02f7f060$1e04a8c0@q> From: "Dave Smith" To: Subject: [JDEV] DOM & threads Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 15:45:49 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0015_01BED847.19369E00" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2013.600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0015_01BED847.19369E00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hey all... Just a quick note. I've looked over the existing structures and I must confess that I feel it would be much cleaner to go ahead and implement = the new DOM (as opposed to simply adding-on to the xpt structure). However, = I don't expect anyone to believe me just because this is what I think. :) So, over the next week or so, my goal is to *attempt* a rewrite of some major pieces of the /lib directory. I would like to implement the new = DOM as well as start the integration of the threading library (Jer, what's the = name of the lib again?). I *will not* be committing anything to CVS. I don't want to screw up anything. :) Furthermore, changes on this scale would seriously break = most of the code. I'm just going to try this and see if it'll work like I = think it will... :) D. ------=_NextPart_000_0015_01BED847.19369E00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hey all...

Just a quick note. = I've looked=20 over the existing structures and I must
confess that I feel it would = be much=20 cleaner to go ahead and implement the
new DOM (as opposed to simply = adding-on=20 to the xpt structure). However, I
don't expect anyone to believe me = just=20 because this is what I think. :)

So, over the next week or so, my = goal is=20 to *attempt* a rewrite of some
major pieces of the /lib directory. I = would=20 like to implement the new DOM as
well as start the integration of the = threading library (Jer, what's the name
of the lib again?).

I = *will=20 not* be committing anything to CVS. I don't want to screw = up
anything. :)=20 Furthermore, changes on this scale would seriously break most
of the=20 code.  I'm just going to try this and see if it'll work like I = think
it=20 will... :)

D.
------=_NextPart_000_0015_01BED847.19369E00-- From owner-jdev@jabber.org Tue Jul 27 23:39:19 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA08371 for jdev-list; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 23:39:19 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from ares.flash.net (ares.flash.net [209.30.0.41]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA08368 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 23:39:11 -0500 Received: from jane.flash.net (p57.amax56.dialup.hou1.flash.net [209.30.156.57]) by ares.flash.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id WAA14676 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 22:39:08 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19990727223853.00831a40@pop.flash.net> X-Sender: sisk@pop.flash.net (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 22:38:53 -0500 To: jdev@jabber.org From: Sisk Family Subject: Re: [JDEV] Win32 Native etherx and jabbertransport.. In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org hello, I am interested in looking at the native win32 client, perhaps doing some programming on it or developing a native client of my own. (I might take you client, rip the UI out, and make a standard win32 lib out of it, and make my client on top. I just joined this list recently, so if there's already a library, i'm sorry, didn't see one on jabber.org) If there's any way I could just download the clients, instead of using email, i'm on a dial up account, so email downloads kill. If that's the only way to get the files to me, that's fine. I'm a vc++ programer, have been doing straight win32 work for 3 years now. I leave on vacation 7-28-99 until ~7-10-99, so that's why i won't respond to your emails. -Stephen Sisk At 09:47 AM 7/23/99 -0700, you wrote: > If anyone would like Win32 native compiles of etherx and jabbertransport, please let me know.. They are roughly 2 megs total, and work. From owner-jdev@jabber.org Wed Jul 28 01:01:28 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA09011 for jdev-list; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 01:01:28 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from mb3.mailbank.com (mb3.mailbank.com [209.133.104.8]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA09008 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 01:01:26 -0500 Received: from joshuaha (ABD0E6D7.ipt.aol.com [171.208.230.215]) by mb3.mailbank.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id WAA07688 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 22:01:17 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990727215728.007a6b70@mh.mailbank.com> X-Sender: Joshua%Haberman.com@mh.mailbank.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 21:57:28 -0700 To: jdev@jabber.org From: Joshua Haberman Subject: [JDEV] when can I start? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org I broke a sacred listserv rule by posting without lurking first, but I'm eager to get my hands dirty. I'm personally dying to see jabber finished, so I can use it on my home LAN. I'd also love to see my name in the credits for a software project that becomes widespread. So tell me what to do and I'll get chugging. What I have: 1. C/C++ experience 2. Various OS experience 3. Competent writing skills 4. Ability to learn whatever I don't know. 5. Time If anyone needs a hand doing _anything_, let me know. Regards, Joshua Haberman From owner-jdev@jabber.org Wed Jul 28 08:19:26 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA11311 for jdev-list; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 08:19:26 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from cheviot.ncl.ac.uk (cheviot.ncl.ac.uk [128.240.233.51]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA11308 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 08:19:24 -0500 From: Lindsay.Marshall@newcastle.ac.uk Received: from burnmoor.ncl.ac.uk by cheviot.ncl.ac.uk id (8.7.6/ for ncl.ac.uk) with ESMTP; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 13:19:22 +0100 (BST) Received: from catless.ncl.ac.uk (simonside.ncl.ac.uk [128.240.150.55]) by burnmoor.ncl.ac.uk (8.7.6/8.6.10-cf revision 2 for Solaris 2.x) with ESMTP id NAA18350; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 13:19:18 +0100 (BST) Message-Id: <199907281219.NAA18350@burnmoor.ncl.ac.uk> Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 13:21:45 +0100 (GMT) Subject: [JDEV] Protocol extension? To: jdev@jabber.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org I just heard about jabber today, so please excuse me if this has been suggested before. Could we extend the definition of the messgae tag so that it can include an encoding that would indicate that character set used in the message. Or is jabber defined to use unicode everywhere? L. -- http://catless.ncl.ac.uk/Lindsay From owner-jdev@jabber.org Wed Jul 28 09:16:55 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA11651 for jdev-list; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 09:16:55 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from mw3.texas.net (mw3.texas.net [206.127.30.13]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA11648 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 09:16:52 -0500 Received: from bigfoot.com (tcnet02-22.houston.texas.net [209.99.28.85]) by mw3.texas.net (2.4/2.4) with ESMTP id IAA14835 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 08:16:45 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <379F02CF.A2779C8A@bigfoot.com> Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 08:17:03 -0500 From: Eliot Landrum X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.10-ac12 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: jdev@jabber.org Subject: Re: [JDEV] when can I start? References: <3.0.6.32.19990727215728.007a6b70@mh.mailbank.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org > What I have: ... > 5. Time I think your lying. How is that possible? ;) -- Eliot Landrum elandrum@bigfoot.com From owner-jdev@jabber.org Wed Jul 28 09:21:05 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA11719 for jdev-list; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 09:21:05 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from mc-qout4.whowhere.com (mc-qout4.whowhere.com [209.185.123.18]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA11715 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 09:21:03 -0500 Received: from Unknown/Local ([?.?.?.?]) by my-deja.com; Wed Jul 28 06:20:28 1999 To: jdev@jabber.org Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 06:20:28 -0700 From: "Thomas D. Charron" Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sent-Mail: off X-Mailer: MailCity Service Subject: Re: [JDEV] when can I start? X-Sender-Ip: 206.50.182.6 Organization: My Deja Email (http://www.my-deja.com:80) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org Well, you CAN post lurk to see if anything interests you. The lists are archived at: http://www.jabber.org/developers/archive/ You are MORE then welcome here.. Do you happen to have any Win32/MFC experience? --- Thomas Charron On Tue, 27 Jul 1999 21:57:28 Joshua Haberman wrote: >I broke a sacred listserv rule by posting without lurking first, but I'm >eager to get my hands dirty. > >I'm personally dying to see jabber finished, so I can use it on my home >LAN. I'd also love to see my name in the credits for a software project >that becomes widespread. So tell me what to do and I'll get chugging. > >What I have: > >1. C/C++ experience >2. Various OS experience >3. Competent writing skills >4. Ability to learn whatever I don't know. >5. Time > >If anyone needs a hand doing _anything_, let me know. > >Regards, Joshua Haberman > > --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- Share what you know. Learn what you don't. From owner-jdev@jabber.org Wed Jul 28 10:04:22 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA12100 for jdev-list; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 10:04:22 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from mc-qout4.whowhere.com (mc-qout4.whowhere.com [209.185.123.18]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA12094 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 10:04:18 -0500 Received: from Unknown/Local ([?.?.?.?]) by my-deja.com; Wed Jul 28 07:03:36 1999 To: jdev@jabber.org, jdev@jabber.org Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 07:03:36 -0700 From: "Thomas D. Charron" Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sent-Mail: off X-Expiredinmiddle: true X-Mailer: MailCity Service Subject: Re: [JDEV] Protocol extension? X-Sender-Ip: 206.50.182.6 Organization: My Deja Email (http://www.my-deja.com:80) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org I MAY be mistaken here, but I BELIEVE that the character set is passed along with the leading tag, defining the version and charset that the datastream will use. The ability would be proccessed and left o the expat library... Jer, can you tell us if the XML tag is actually getting sent to expat? I believe it IS passed to expat, so it should be able to handle all charsets that expat itself can handle.. --- Thomas Charron On Wed, 28 Jul 1999 13:21:45 Lindsay.Marshall wrote: >I just heard about jabber today, so please excuse me if this has been >suggested before. Could we extend the definition of the messgae tag so >that it can include an encoding that would indicate that character set >used in the message. > > > >Or is jabber defined to use unicode everywhere? > >L. >-- >http://catless.ncl.ac.uk/Lindsay > > --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- Share what you know. Learn what you don't. From owner-jdev@jabber.org Wed Jul 28 10:04:22 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA12101 for jdev-list; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 10:04:22 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from mc-qout4.whowhere.com (mc-qout4.whowhere.com [209.185.123.18]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA12095 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 10:04:18 -0500 Received: from Unknown/Local ([?.?.?.?]) by my-deja.com; Wed Jul 28 07:03:36 1999 To: jdev@jabber.org, jdev@jabber.org Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 07:03:36 -0700 From: "Thomas D. Charron" Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sent-Mail: off X-Expiredinmiddle: true X-Mailer: MailCity Service Subject: Re: [JDEV] Protocol extension? X-Sender-Ip: 206.50.182.6 Organization: My Deja Email (http://www.my-deja.com:80) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org I MAY be mistaken here, but I BELIEVE that the character set is passed along with the leading tag, defining the version and charset that the datastream will use. The ability would be proccessed and left o the expat library... Jer, can you tell us if the XML tag is actually getting sent to expat? I believe it IS passed to expat, so it should be able to handle all charsets that expat itself can handle.. --- Thomas Charron On Wed, 28 Jul 1999 13:21:45 Lindsay.Marshall wrote: >I just heard about jabber today, so please excuse me if this has been >suggested before. Could we extend the definition of the messgae tag so >that it can include an encoding that would indicate that character set >used in the message. > > > >Or is jabber defined to use unicode everywhere? > >L. >-- >http://catless.ncl.ac.uk/Lindsay > > --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- Share what you know. Learn what you don't. From owner-jdev@jabber.org Wed Jul 28 10:21:50 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA12334 for jdev-list; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 10:21:50 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from localhost (jeremie@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA12331 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 10:21:48 -0500 Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 10:21:47 -0500 (CDT) From: Jeremie X-Sender: jeremie@mondo.eppg.com To: jdev@jabber.org Subject: [JDEV] Quick Update Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org I've been working on the new dedicated server for Jabber(for the site/cvs/list/etc) and am [finally!] nearing a point where I can start moving services over to it. The first to go will be CVS. Along with moving the CVS-managed code to the new server, I'll be breaking it up on a per-project basis. Each project will have it's own workspace and users that have access to it. I will also be placing most of the web site into CVS and am building a mechanism to host other CVS-based web sites automatically. This will allow the hosting of team/project sites under *.jabber.org easily. This and the other mailing lists will be the next to move. I have mailman (http://www.list.org/) installed and the move should be pretty straight forward, I'll post more info before I actually do the move. I'm planning on having those done before this weekend, and then working on jabber.org this weekend. As I've mentioned before, I'm remodeling the tools and structure around teams, and hope to have everything in place this weekend to get back into the normal workflow and really focus on 0.7. Back to the beat... Jer From owner-jdev@jabber.org Wed Jul 28 11:16:38 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA12740 for jdev-list; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 11:16:38 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from cheviot.ncl.ac.uk (cheviot.ncl.ac.uk [128.240.233.51]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA12737 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 11:16:35 -0500 From: Lindsay.Marshall@newcastle.ac.uk Received: from burnmoor.ncl.ac.uk by cheviot.ncl.ac.uk id (8.7.6/ for ncl.ac.uk) with ESMTP; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 16:16:28 +0100 (BST) Received: from catless.ncl.ac.uk (simonside.ncl.ac.uk [128.240.150.55]) by burnmoor.ncl.ac.uk (8.7.6/8.6.10-cf revision 2 for Solaris 2.x) with ESMTP id QAA15243; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 16:16:23 +0100 (BST) Message-Id: <199907281516.QAA15243@burnmoor.ncl.ac.uk> Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 16:18:50 +0100 (GMT) Subject: Re: [JDEV] Protocol extension? To: jdev@jabber.org cc: tcharron@my-deja.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org On 28 Jul, Thomas D. Charron wrote: > I MAY be mistaken here, but I BELIEVE that the character set is passed along with the leading tag, defining the version and charset that the datastream will use. The ability would be proccessed and left o the expat library... > > Jer, can you tell us if the XML tag is actually getting sent to expat? I believe it IS passed to expat, so it should be able to handle all charsets that expat itself can handle.. (Remembering that I am not fully au fait with everything yet) Marking the character set on the XML tag is not good enough. I may login and there may be several messages waiting for me, each of them encoded in a different character set. How are you going to deal with that? Fine, set a global encoding on the XML line, but I do think that it ought to be possible to somehow override this for an individual message (or nickname in fact) BTW I couldn;t get the tcl/tk client to download so I wrote my own this afternoon. It's called Stiletto and is about 75% done - I can login and receive and send messages. I haven't got to grips with some of the other stuff yet so that isn't handled until I can find some documentation.... L. -- http://catless.ncl.ac.uk/Lindsay From owner-jdev@jabber.org Wed Jul 28 11:43:56 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA13028 for jdev-list; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 11:43:56 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from mc-qout4.whowhere.com (mc-qout4.whowhere.com [209.185.123.18]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA13025 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 11:43:53 -0500 Received: from Unknown/Local ([?.?.?.?]) by my-deja.com; Wed Jul 28 08:43:19 1999 To: jdev@jabber.org, Lindsay.Marshall@newcastle.ac.uk Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 08:43:19 -0700 From: "Thomas D. Charron" Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Cc: tcharron@my-deja.com X-Sent-Mail: off X-Mailer: MailCity Service Subject: Re: [JDEV] Protocol extension? X-Sender-Ip: 206.50.182.6 Organization: My Deja Email (http://www.my-deja.com:80) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org >> I MAY be mistaken here, but I BELIEVE that the character set is passed along with the leading tag, defining the version and charset that the datastream will use. The ability would be proccessed and left o the expat library... >Marking the character set on the XML tag is not good enough. I may >login and there may be several messages waiting for me, each of them >encoded in a different character set. How are you going to deal with >that? Fine, set a global encoding on the XML line, but I do think that >it ought to be possible to somehow override this for an individual >message (or nickname in fact) Hrm, I see your point.. What about designating that the only valid char set for use within jabber be either iso or unicode? I really haven't delved into using mutliple char sets within ANY programs, so your most likely ahead of me as far as knowledge of the actual requirments are concerned.. >BTW I couldn;t get the tcl/tk client to download so I wrote my own this >afternoon. It's called Stiletto and is about 75% done - I can login and >receive and send messages. I haven't got to grips with some of the >other stuff yet so that isn't handled until I can find some >documentation.... I mailed you the zabber sources just now.. ;-P --- Thomas Charron --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- Share what you know. Learn what you don't. From owner-jdev@jabber.org Wed Jul 28 11:49:59 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA13089 for jdev-list; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 11:49:59 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from cheviot.ncl.ac.uk (cheviot.ncl.ac.uk [128.240.233.51]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA13086 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 11:49:48 -0500 From: Lindsay.Marshall@newcastle.ac.uk Received: from burnmoor.ncl.ac.uk by cheviot.ncl.ac.uk id (8.7.6/ for ncl.ac.uk) with ESMTP; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 16:49:30 +0100 (BST) Received: from catless.ncl.ac.uk (simonside.ncl.ac.uk [128.240.150.55]) by burnmoor.ncl.ac.uk (8.7.6/8.6.10-cf revision 2 for Solaris 2.x) with ESMTP id QAA19892; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 16:49:25 +0100 (BST) Message-Id: <199907281549.QAA19892@burnmoor.ncl.ac.uk> Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 16:51:51 +0100 (GMT) Subject: Re: [JDEV] Protocol extension? To: tcharron@my-deja.com cc: jdev@jabber.org In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org > Hrm, I see your point.. What about designating that the only valid char set for use within jabber > be either iso or unicode? I really haven't delved into using mutliple char sets within ANY programs, > so your most likely ahead of me as far as knowledge of the actual requirments are concerned.. Well, in tcl it is completely trivial to work with multiple character set encodings as all the support is built in already - if you know th e encoding you translate it to unicode straight away and back - but I dont know about any other systems. L. -- http://catless.ncl.ac.uk/Lindsay From owner-jdev@jabber.org Wed Jul 28 12:45:31 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA13535 for jdev-list; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 12:45:31 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from localhost (jeremie@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA13530; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 12:45:20 -0500 Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 12:45:20 -0500 (CDT) From: Jeremie X-Sender: jeremie@mondo.eppg.com To: Jabber Development cc: Yoni Elhanani Subject: Re: [JDEV] Many Messaging protocol. (security) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org To answer your(and others) concerns about security and Jabber: Because security and encryption are very important to many people, I'm planning on creating a special team just do discuss these issues and come up with either add in modules for Jabber, reccomendations for clients(including libraries, etc), or any protocol extensions/etc that might be needed to enhance security via Jabber or create secure messaging between Jabber users. Give me till early next week to get jabber.org moved and the mailing lists set up for this team, and then we can bring up some of these issues again and discuss them in depth. Jer On Tue, 27 Jul 1999, Thomas D. Charron wrote: > On Tue, 27 Jul 1999 21:50:53 Yoni Elhanani wrote: > >"Thomas D. Charron" wrote: > > >1. Encryption > >The ability to send encrypted data so it cannot be decrypted. (duh) > > Primary reasoning being the export restrictions.. No, raw packets would not be encrypted, merely the data WITHIN those packets.. > > >2. Friends List authorization. > >Only allow certain people to know if I am online. > >VERY IMPORTANT, as today, anyone can add me to his "contact list" > >without my permission, > >and know when i am online, offline, my IP, etc. > >This is done with a certificate, which (generally) is the public key of > >the reciever, signed by the issuer. > > Already done in the base jabber system.. This information is NOT presented unless you are both on each others lists.. > > >3. Personal data > >Data such as my home phone number will be availible to people with the > >above certificate. > > Again, already complete. The server side has 'security settings' for personally stored data on the server, aka, who can access what data.. > > >4. Session key. > >Since the entire data will be encrypted with a session key, > >it is assumed that the person sending the data is the same one that have > >authorized before, > >since he is the only other person who knows the session key. > >this can save time on slow machines. > > This is where we would have to extend our current digisig module to actually encrypt the message text, vs just signing it. > > As far as I can tell, the only place we seem to part company is the level of encrypting EVERYTHING that goes thru.. Some things we simply cannot encrypt, since we are building a modular system that can communicate with other systems as well as ours. We could not really have encryption happen for the entire proccess for a converation between a jabber user and an AIM or ICQ user. > > > >if i want to tell people on the jabber list about pump, > >I'll have to send them my postscript file (or a tex file made by LyX, > >which makes it messy). > >So it would be better if i can link to it and just put it on an FTP > >site. > >Problem is i have nowhere to put it.... :-( > > I can throw it someplace tonight that they can link to, and let you know.. > > >If you can either > >1. put it somewhere with public access > >2. Tell me it's ok to send large postscript files to a mailing list > >I'll be happy. > > --- > Thomas Charron > > > > > --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- > Share what you know. Learn what you don't. > From owner-jdev@jabber.org Wed Jul 28 12:59:44 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA13671 for jdev-list; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 12:59:44 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from localhost (jeremie@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA13668 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 12:59:42 -0500 Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 12:59:41 -0500 (CDT) From: Jeremie X-Sender: jeremie@mondo.eppg.com To: jdev@jabber.org Subject: Re: [JDEV] DOM & threads In-Reply-To: <001a01bed871$02f7f060$1e04a8c0@q> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org > Hey all... > > Just a quick note. I've looked over the existing structures and I must > confess that I feel it would be much cleaner to go ahead and implement the > new DOM (as opposed to simply adding-on to the xpt structure). However, I > don't expect anyone to believe me just because this is what I think. :) Hmmm... ok :) I would think there is enough there in the xpt struct to handle most of the DOM wrapper functionality, but I'd be happily pleased to be proved wrong. > So, over the next week or so, my goal is to *attempt* a rewrite of some > major pieces of the /lib directory. I would like to implement the new DOM as > well as start the integration of the threading library (Jer, what's the name > of the lib again?). The threading library is pth, at http://www.gnu.org/software/pth/pth.html As soon as I can get caught up on some of the server-move work, I'll be sending out a kind of general thread-integration proposal as far as how I'd like to see threads working within the server and libraries. > I *will not* be committing anything to CVS. I don't want to screw up > anything. :) Furthermore, changes on this scale would seriously break most > of the code. I'm just going to try this and see if it'll work like I think > it will... :) That's cool, CVS will be in shambles for a while here anyway :-) Jer From owner-jdev@jabber.org Wed Jul 28 13:39:25 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA14066 for jdev-list; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 13:39:25 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from localhost (jeremie@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA14063 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 13:39:23 -0500 Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 13:39:23 -0500 (CDT) From: Jeremie X-Sender: jeremie@mondo.eppg.com To: jdev@jabber.org Subject: Re: [JDEV] charsets (was: Protocol extension?) In-Reply-To: <199907281549.QAA19892@burnmoor.ncl.ac.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org Reguarding the whole charset discussion... this is an issue that I haven't dealt with yet simply becuase I've had no experience with other character sets. I do know that XML is very closely related to unicode, but I'm not too familiar with unicode. Would it be suggested to simply standardize on one charset, be that unicode or one of the ISO* charsets? I'm open to suggestions, but want to keep the client restrictions to a minimum(such as they aren't forced to understand multiple character sets). Jer On Wed, 28 Jul 1999 Lindsay.Marshall@newcastle.ac.uk wrote: > > > Hrm, I see your point.. What about designating that the only valid char set for use within jabber > > be either iso or unicode? I really haven't delved into using mutliple char sets within ANY programs, > > so your most likely ahead of me as far as knowledge of the actual requirments are concerned.. > > Well, in tcl it is completely trivial to work with multiple character > set encodings as all the support is built in already - if you know th > e encoding you translate it to unicode straight away and back - but I > dont know about any other systems. > > L. > -- > http://catless.ncl.ac.uk/Lindsay > From owner-jdev@jabber.org Wed Jul 28 23:53:00 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA17444 for jdev-list; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 23:53:00 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from exchange.starbasecorp.com (exchange.starbasecorp.com [12.13.2.6]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA17439 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 23:52:55 -0500 Received: from geocities.com (adsl-216-103-55-119.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [216.103.55.119]) by exchange.starbasecorp.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2448.0) id PQQNNW63; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 20:52:56 -0700 Message-ID: <379FD061.42073414@geocities.com> Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 20:54:09 -0700 From: "Jon A. Cruz" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.5-15 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: jdev@jabber.org Subject: Re: [JDEV] Protocol extension? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org "Thomas D. Charron" wrote: > >> I MAY be mistaken here, but I BELIEVE that the character set is passed along with the leading tag, defining the version and charset that the datastream will use. The ability would be proccessed and left o the expat library... > >Marking the character set on the XML tag is not good enough. I may > >login and there may be several messages waiting for me, each of them > >encoded in a different character set. How are you going to deal with > >that? Fine, set a global encoding on the XML line, but I do think that > >it ought to be possible to somehow override this for an individual > >message (or nickname in fact) > > Hrm, I see your point.. What about designating that the only valid char set for use within jabber be either iso or unicode? I really haven't delved into using mutliple char sets within ANY programs, so your most likely ahead of me as far as knowledge of the actual requirments are concerned.. > I suggest going with UTF-8. All ASCII chars stay the same, but then all Unicode are supported. Also, the W3C had been recommending it. -- "My new computer's got the clocks, it rocks But it was obsolete before I opened the box" - W.A.Y. From owner-jdev@jabber.org Thu Jul 29 00:19:29 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA17693 for jdev-list; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 00:19:29 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from exchange.starbasecorp.com (exchange.starbasecorp.com [12.13.2.6]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA17690 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 00:19:26 -0500 Received: from geocities.com (adsl-216-103-55-119.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [216.103.55.119]) by exchange.starbasecorp.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2448.0) id PQQNNW66; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 21:19:36 -0700 Message-ID: <379FD6A7.400A28FD@geocities.com> Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 21:20:55 -0700 From: "Jon A. Cruz" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.5-15 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: jdev@jabber.org Subject: Re: [JDEV] charsets (was: Protocol extension?) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org Jeremie wrote: > Reguarding the whole charset discussion... this is an issue that I haven't > dealt with yet simply becuase I've had no experience with other character > sets. > I've been doing software for the non-US market on and off now for about 7 years now, so I can help in discussions. -- "My new computer's got the clocks, it rocks But it was obsolete before I opened the box" - W.A.Y. From owner-jdev@jabber.org Thu Jul 29 03:29:18 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id DAA18560 for jdev-list; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 03:29:18 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from nautilus.netg.se (root@nautilus.netg.se [212.91.134.131]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA18557 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 03:29:15 -0500 Received: from valdez.netg.se (quest@valdez.netg.se [212.91.131.52]) by nautilus.netg.se (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id JAA31604 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 09:29:13 +0200 Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 09:29:12 +0200 (CEST) From: Anders Qvist To: jdev@jabber.org Subject: Re: [JDEV] charsets (was: Protocol extension?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from QUOTED-PRINTABLE to 8bit by mondo.eppg.com id DAA18558 Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org On Wed, 28 Jul 1999, Jeremie wrote: > Reguarding the whole charset discussion... this is an issue that I haven't > dealt with yet simply becuase I've had no experience with other character > sets. > > I do know that XML is very closely related to unicode, but I'm not too > familiar with unicode. Would it be suggested to simply standardize on one > charset, be that unicode or one of the ISO* charsets? I'm open to > suggestions, but want to keep the client restrictions to a minimum(such as > they aren't forced to understand multiple character sets). Problem is, charsets change every once in a while. For example, ISO-Latin-8859-1 does not contain the euro symbol used for European Union Monetary Union currency. For this purpose there is a new character set (can't remember the iso code). This is probably gonna happen every few years. As to the argument about keeping client restrictions to a minimum, as a swede, I'd say a program such as a jabber client is not working if I cant use national swedish characters (mainly åäö) when communicating with other swedes. Anyway, you dont need to force the clients to understand charsets, but the jaber message format must be able to convey which character set the message is written in. Personally, I'd prefer if ALL messages were marked with character set, even if it is "the default one". Sorry to jump on you like this. Most European countries have some national characters not enclosed in us-ascii and it is frustrating having those issues continually marginalised by US developers. I can only imagine how the Japanese feel about it. If there is anything I can do to help in the matter, please tell me. > Jer > > On Wed, 28 Jul 1999 Lindsay.Marshall@newcastle.ac.uk wrote: > > > > > > Hrm, I see your point.. What about designating that the only valid char set for use within jabber > > > be either iso or unicode? I really haven't delved into using mutliple char sets within ANY programs, > > > so your most likely ahead of me as far as knowledge of the actual requirments are concerned.. > > > > Well, in tcl it is completely trivial to work with multiple character > > set encodings as all the support is built in already - if you know th > > e encoding you translate it to unicode straight away and back - but I > > dont know about any other systems. > > > > L. > > -- > > http://catless.ncl.ac.uk/Lindsay > > > > Anders "Quest" Qvist NetGuide Scandinavia -- Why suffer scarcity? Look for the Open Source and enter a world of plenty! From owner-jdev@jabber.org Thu Jul 29 04:29:04 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id EAA19050 for jdev-list; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 04:29:04 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from cheviot.ncl.ac.uk (cheviot.ncl.ac.uk [128.240.233.51]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id EAA19047 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 04:29:01 -0500 From: Lindsay.Marshall@newcastle.ac.uk Received: from burnmoor.ncl.ac.uk by cheviot.ncl.ac.uk id (8.7.6/ for ncl.ac.uk) with ESMTP; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 09:28:59 +0100 (BST) Received: from catless.ncl.ac.uk (simonside.ncl.ac.uk [128.240.150.55]) by burnmoor.ncl.ac.uk (8.7.6/8.6.10-cf revision 2 for Solaris 2.x) with ESMTP id JAA18123; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 09:28:56 +0100 (BST) Message-Id: <199907290828.JAA18123@burnmoor.ncl.ac.uk> Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 09:31:55 +0100 (GMT) Subject: Re: [JDEV] charsets (was: Protocol extension?) To: jdev@jabber.org In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org > As to the argument about keeping client restrictions to a minimum, as > a swede, I'd say a program such as a jabber client is not working if I > cant use national swedish characters (mainly åäö) when communicating > with other swedes. This is absolutely correct. Jabber will simply not be used if it cannot deal with natioanl character sets. That is not say that every client has to be able to handle every charcaterset - but certainly the dominsatn character set of a user's country should be supported. > Anyway, you dont need to force the clients to understand charsets, but > the jaber message format must be able to convey which character set > the message is written in. Personally, I'd prefer if ALL messages were > marked with character set, even if it is "the default one". Can I also suggest that there is a marking for language as well. I think that it is quite important to provide as much information as possbile. If you provide a language tag then I can interface my client to an automatic translation system and get messages translated without having either to tell the system the language by hand or else trying to guess the language (which is hard). There are well defined tags for languages that can just be picked up. I think that language and encoding are essential additions to the coding. > Sorry to jump on you like this. Most European countries have some > national characters not enclosed in us-ascii and it is frustrating > having those issues continually marginalised by US developers. I can > only imagine how the Japanese feel about it. Oh, the Japanese really, really hate it and so do the Russians and the Chinese, and the Koreans, actually *everybody* hates it apart from the people in the USA... L. -- http://catless.ncl.ac.uk/Lindsay From owner-jdev@jabber.org Thu Jul 29 04:31:29 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id EAA19075 for jdev-list; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 04:31:29 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from cheviot.ncl.ac.uk (cheviot.ncl.ac.uk [128.240.233.51]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id EAA19071 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 04:31:24 -0500 From: Lindsay.Marshall@newcastle.ac.uk Received: from burnmoor.ncl.ac.uk by cheviot.ncl.ac.uk id (8.7.6/ for ncl.ac.uk) with ESMTP; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 09:31:23 +0100 (BST) Received: from catless.ncl.ac.uk (simonside.ncl.ac.uk [128.240.150.55]) by burnmoor.ncl.ac.uk (8.7.6/8.6.10-cf revision 2 for Solaris 2.x) with ESMTP id JAA18436; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 09:31:19 +0100 (BST) Message-Id: <199907290831.JAA18436@burnmoor.ncl.ac.uk> Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 09:34:19 +0100 (GMT) Subject: Re: [JDEV] charsets (was: Protocol extension?) To: jdev@jabber.org In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org On 28 Jul, Jeremie wrote: > Reguarding the whole charset discussion... this is an issue that I haven't > dealt with yet simply becuase I've had no experience with other character > sets. > > I do know that XML is very closely related to unicode, but I'm not too > familiar with unicode. Would it be suggested to simply standardize on one > charset, be that unicode or one of the ISO* charsets? I'm open to > suggestions, but want to keep the client restrictions to a minimum(such as > they aren't forced to understand multiple character sets). No client needs to be forced to understand multiple character sets. Its's just that the majority of the people in the world will want to use a client that can understand the character set *they* use. I suspect most Russians don't care about messages in Korean (though some will). You can only support the character sets for which you have typefaces anyway. L. -- http://catless.ncl.ac.uk/Lindsay From owner-jdev@jabber.org Thu Jul 29 04:39:40 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id EAA19175 for jdev-list; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 04:39:40 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from cheviot.ncl.ac.uk (cheviot.ncl.ac.uk [128.240.233.51]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id EAA19171 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 04:39:37 -0500 From: Lindsay.Marshall@newcastle.ac.uk Received: from burnmoor.ncl.ac.uk by cheviot.ncl.ac.uk id (8.7.6/ for ncl.ac.uk) with ESMTP; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 09:39:36 +0100 (BST) Received: from catless.ncl.ac.uk (simonside.ncl.ac.uk [128.240.150.55]) by burnmoor.ncl.ac.uk (8.7.6/8.6.10-cf revision 2 for Solaris 2.x) with ESMTP id JAA19527; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 09:39:32 +0100 (BST) Message-Id: <199907290839.JAA19527@burnmoor.ncl.ac.uk> Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 09:42:31 +0100 (GMT) Subject: Re: [JDEV] Protocol extension? To: jdev@jabber.org In-Reply-To: <379FD061.42073414@geocities.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org > I suggest going with UTF-8. All ASCII chars stay the same, but then all Unicode are supported. > Also, the W3C had been recommending it. Whilst wholeheartedly supporting the idea of using UTF-8, it is not clear that all systems would necessarily have the requisite support for it at the moment. By all means make UTF-8 the default character set, but why not allow the possibility of just stating the encoding. Note that it is to only things in that need to be dealt with but also other textual items such as nicknames. Having the "name" sent as an attribute of a means that specifying an encoding for it may be tricky or at least ugly. L. -- http://catless.ncl.ac.uk/Lindsay From owner-jdev@jabber.org Thu Jul 29 04:50:34 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id EAA19377 for jdev-list; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 04:50:34 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from cheviot.ncl.ac.uk (cheviot.ncl.ac.uk [128.240.233.51]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id EAA19373 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 04:50:31 -0500 From: Lindsay.Marshall@newcastle.ac.uk Received: from burnmoor.ncl.ac.uk by cheviot.ncl.ac.uk id (8.7.6/ for ncl.ac.uk) with ESMTP; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 09:50:30 +0100 (BST) Received: from catless.ncl.ac.uk (simonside.ncl.ac.uk [128.240.150.55]) by burnmoor.ncl.ac.uk (8.7.6/8.6.10-cf revision 2 for Solaris 2.x) with ESMTP id JAA20869; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 09:50:26 +0100 (BST) Message-Id: <199907290850.JAA20869@burnmoor.ncl.ac.uk> Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 09:53:25 +0100 (GMT) Subject: [JDEV] More protocol issues... To: jdev@jabber.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org Looking at the dtd in 0.6 I see that there appears to be no way of including a date/timestamp with a sent message. It seems to me to be vital that when I read a message I know the time at which it was generated - "meet you in 5 minutes" is no good if I dont see the message until 2 hours after it was generated. (sure you can timestamp on arrival at the client but that's no good if you are not logged in) Of course this may be there already and I just haven't found it yet. L. -- http://catless.ncl.ac.uk/Lindsay From owner-jdev@jabber.org Thu Jul 29 05:09:29 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id FAA19522 for jdev-list; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 05:09:29 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from cheviot.ncl.ac.uk (cheviot.ncl.ac.uk [128.240.233.51]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA19519 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 05:09:25 -0500 From: Lindsay.Marshall@newcastle.ac.uk Received: from burnmoor.ncl.ac.uk by cheviot.ncl.ac.uk id (8.7.6/ for ncl.ac.uk) with ESMTP; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 10:09:24 +0100 (BST) Received: from catless.ncl.ac.uk (simonside.ncl.ac.uk [128.240.150.55]) by burnmoor.ncl.ac.uk (8.7.6/8.6.10-cf revision 2 for Solaris 2.x) with ESMTP id KAA23779; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 10:09:19 +0100 (BST) Message-Id: <199907290909.KAA23779@burnmoor.ncl.ac.uk> Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 10:12:18 +0100 (GMT) Subject: [JDEV] Busy server? To: jdev@jabber.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org Is anyone running a jabber server that is fully set up that I can hook into to see how it all looks when active? L. -- http://catless.ncl.ac.uk/Lindsay From owner-jdev@jabber.org Thu Jul 29 05:23:07 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id FAA19689 for jdev-list; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 05:23:07 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from zeus.kia.net ([205.252.89.69]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA19686 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 05:23:05 -0500 Received: from localhost (patrick@localhost) by zeus.kia.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id FAA28300 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 05:30:09 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 05:30:09 -0400 (EDT) From: patrick To: jdev@jabber.org Subject: Re: [JDEV] charsets (was: Protocol extension?) In-Reply-To: <199907290828.JAA18123@burnmoor.ncl.ac.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org > Can I also suggest that there is a marking for language as well. I > think that it is quite important to provide as much information as > possbile. If you provide a language tag then I can interface my client > to an automatic translation system and get messages translated without > having either to tell the system the language by hand or else trying to > guess the language (which is hard). There are well defined tags for > languages that can just be picked up. I think that language and encoding > are essential additions to the coding. > You beat me to the suggestion by only a few minutes. If language isn't provided for in the base protocol, we'll just have to layer it on later. For purposes of simplicity, and easily implemented clients, these message attributes should be optionally included by clients, with clients expected to default sensibly (say, UTF-8, support for which is required by XML parsers, and US English). If clients choose to ignore other languages and charsets, there's not much to be done about it, but we can encourage them by putting support directly in the protocol. The language tags would also be useful to text to speech synthesizers. Speaking of the protocol, anyone know why errors are implemented as messages? It seems more logical to me to have a separate node. I expect I'm missing something. Patrick > > Sorry to jump on you like this. Most European countries have some > > national characters not enclosed in us-ascii and it is frustrating > > having those issues continually marginalised by US developers. I can > > only imagine how the Japanese feel about it. > > Oh, the Japanese really, really hate it and so do the Russians and the > Chinese, and the Koreans, actually *everybody* hates it apart from the > people in the USA... > > L. > -- > http://catless.ncl.ac.uk/Lindsay > > From owner-jdev@jabber.org Thu Jul 29 07:36:01 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA20754 for jdev-list; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 07:36:01 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from nautilus.netg.se (root@nautilus.netg.se [212.91.134.131]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA20750 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 07:35:58 -0500 Received: from valdez.netg.se (quest@valdez.netg.se [212.91.131.52]) by nautilus.netg.se (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id NAA04325 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 13:35:56 +0200 Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 13:35:56 +0200 (CEST) From: Anders Qvist To: jdev@jabber.org Subject: Re: [JDEV] charsets (was: Protocol extension?) In-Reply-To: <199907290828.JAA18123@burnmoor.ncl.ac.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org On Thu, 29 Jul 1999 Lindsay.Marshall@newcastle.ac.uk wrote: [snip] > > Anyway, you dont need to force the clients to understand charsets, but > > the jaber message format must be able to convey which character set > > the message is written in. Personally, I'd prefer if ALL messages were > > marked with character set, even if it is "the default one". > > Can I also suggest that there is a marking for language as well. I > think that it is quite important to provide as much information as > possbile. If you provide a language tag then I can interface my client > to an automatic translation system and get messages translated without > having either to tell the system the language by hand or else trying to > guess the language (which is hard). There are well defined tags for > languages that can just be picked up. I think that language and encoding > are essential additions to the coding. How do the client know the language of a message? "Normal" human usage patterns would probably be to write most mesasges in their native language and some in english. It seems to me that selecting language on every other message will likely be too much of a hassle. Of course, it would be possible for every user to enter preferred language in your profile in the roster. Intelligent clients could guess that yuo write a message to a person in his/her preferred language. That would reduce the number of occasions of manual language selection, if not eliminate it. ... or we could pipe the text through spell with varying dictionaries and select the one that has least errors. ;) All this is a client issue of course, and shouldn't bother the protocol/DTD itself. Misuse is no reason not to do things right. Still it will be an issue. Any suggestions? Anders "Quest" Qvist NetGuide Scandinavia -- Why suffer scarcity? Look for the Open Source and enter a world of plenty! From owner-jdev@jabber.org Thu Jul 29 09:08:09 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA21392 for jdev-list; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 09:08:09 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from cheviot.ncl.ac.uk (cheviot.ncl.ac.uk [128.240.233.51]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA21389 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 09:08:05 -0500 From: Lindsay.Marshall@newcastle.ac.uk Received: from burnmoor.ncl.ac.uk by cheviot.ncl.ac.uk id (8.7.6/ for ncl.ac.uk) with ESMTP; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 14:07:56 +0100 (BST) Received: from catless.ncl.ac.uk (simonside.ncl.ac.uk [128.240.150.55]) by burnmoor.ncl.ac.uk (8.7.6/8.6.10-cf revision 2 for Solaris 2.x) with ESMTP id OAA26179; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 14:07:52 +0100 (BST) Message-Id: <199907291307.OAA26179@burnmoor.ncl.ac.uk> Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 14:10:51 +0100 (GMT) Subject: Re: [JDEV] charsets (was: Protocol extension?) To: jdev@jabber.org cc: quest@netg.se In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org > How do the client know the language of a message? "Normal" human usage > patterns would probably be to write most mesasges in their native > language and some in english. It seems to me that selecting language > on every other message will likely be too much of a hassle. Of course, it > would be possible for every user to enter preferred language in your > profile in the roster. Intelligent clients could guess that yuo write a > message to a person in his/her preferred language. That would reduce > the number of occasions of manual language selection, if not eliminate > it. The client simply looks at the default locale and that will tell it the local default language. It could perhaps negotiate with the server to see if its default is the same so as to avoid sending it all the time. > ... or we could pipe the text through spell with varying dictionaries > and select the one that has least errors. ;) Automatic langugae recognition is hard - there is a website that tries to do it and it is not very good. > All this is a client issue of course, and shouldn't bother the > protocol/DTD itself. Misuse is no reason not to do things right. Still > it will be an issue. Any suggestions? It is *not* jut a client issue. The information has to be embedded into the protocol so needs to be in the DTD somewhere. L. -- http://catless.ncl.ac.uk/Lindsay From owner-jdev@jabber.org Thu Jul 29 09:42:32 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA21645 for jdev-list; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 09:42:32 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from smtp3.mindspring.com (smtp3.mindspring.com [207.69.200.33]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA21641 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 09:42:29 -0500 Received: from q (pool-209-138-48-167.tmpa.grid.net [209.138.48.167]) by smtp3.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA17073 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 09:42:23 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <001701bed9c8$8e38db50$1e04a8c0@q> From: "Dave Smith" To: References: Subject: Re: [JDEV] charsets (was: Protocol extension?) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 08:45:00 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2013.600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org > language and some in english. It seems to me that selecting language > on every other message will likely be too much of a hassle. Of course, it Yup. Here's my suggestion for a DTD amendment: Add a "encoding" attribute to every tag. Only the tag should *require* the encoding attribute, and it will use that to set the default encoding for all the other tags. I'm not real familiar with Unicode, so this may be way off. :) D. From owner-jdev@jabber.org Thu Jul 29 09:47:57 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA21714 for jdev-list; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 09:47:57 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from mc-qout4.whowhere.com (mc-qout4.whowhere.com [209.185.123.18]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA21709 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 09:47:54 -0500 Received: from Unknown/Local ([?.?.?.?]) by my-deja.com; Thu Jul 29 06:47:14 1999 To: jdev@jabber.org Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 06:47:14 -0700 From: "Thomas D. Charron" Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sent-Mail: off X-Mailer: MailCity Service Subject: Re: [JDEV] More protocol issues... X-Sender-Ip: 206.50.182.6 Organization: My Deja Email (http://www.my-deja.com:80) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org Good point.. One could add it in tags, but I'd say that this would be much better to add in a tag within a message.. I'd say that this can be added sometime next week, after Jer get's the new server up and everything moved over.. --- Thomas Charron On Thu, 29 Jul 1999 09:53:25 Lindsay.Marshall wrote: >Looking at the dtd in 0.6 I see that there appears to be no way of >including a date/timestamp with a sent message. It seems to me to be >vital that when I read a message I know the time at which it was >generated - "meet you in 5 minutes" is no good if I dont see the >message until 2 hours after it was generated. (sure you can timestamp >on arrival at the client but that's no good if you are not logged in) > >Of course this may be there already and I just haven't found it yet. > >L. >-- >http://catless.ncl.ac.uk/Lindsay > > --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- Share what you know. Learn what you don't. From owner-jdev@jabber.org Thu Jul 29 09:50:37 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA21804 for jdev-list; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 09:50:37 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from nautilus.netg.se (root@nautilus.netg.se [212.91.134.131]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA21799 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 09:50:33 -0500 Received: from valdez.netg.se (quest@valdez.netg.se [212.91.131.52]) by nautilus.netg.se (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id PAA07386 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 15:50:25 +0200 Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 15:50:25 +0200 (CEST) From: Anders Qvist To: jdev@jabber.org Subject: Re: [JDEV] charsets (was: Protocol extension?) In-Reply-To: <199907291307.OAA26179@burnmoor.ncl.ac.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org On Thu, 29 Jul 1999 Lindsay.Marshall@newcastle.ac.uk wrote: > > How do the client know the language of a message? "Normal" human usage > > patterns would probably be to write most mesasges in their native > > language and some in english. It seems to me that selecting language > > on every other message will likely be too much of a hassle. Of course, it > > would be possible for every user to enter preferred language in your > > profile in the roster. Intelligent clients could guess that yuo write a > > message to a person in his/her preferred language. That would reduce > > the number of occasions of manual language selection, if not eliminate > > it. > > The client simply looks at the default locale and that will tell it the > local default language. It could perhaps negotiate with the server to > see if its default is the same so as to avoid sending it all the time. I think you misunderstood me. Replying to existing messages is easy: the client should assume that you're answering in the same language as the sender had in his message. However, every time you send a new message, it's kind of dangerous to assume any language. I myself is a typical example. I will probably write about half the messages in swedish and half in english. This would mean that if the client used the locale or some default value, it would be wrong about half the time, and I would have to fiddle with some pesky "select language" { drop down list | command line paramter } about half the time. However, if the roster info contained the *user's* locale, my client could guess on that and be right most of the time. Come to think of it, this would help bots and the like too, in that they could talk to people in their native language. It would definitively be nice if the roster info included preferred language and probably charset as well. [snip] > > All this is a client issue of course, and shouldn't bother the > > protocol/DTD itself. Misuse is no reason not to do things right. Still > > it will be an issue. Any suggestions? > > It is *not* jut a client issue. The information has to be embedded > into the protocol so needs to be in the DTD somewhere. I was refering to the business of *selecting* language for a message. The protocol in itself should definitively have the feature. Anders "Quest" Qvist NetGuide Scandinavia -- Why suffer scarcity? Look for the Open Source and enter a world of plenty! From owner-jdev@jabber.org Thu Jul 29 10:26:04 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA22166 for jdev-list; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 10:26:04 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from smtp6.mindspring.com (smtp6.mindspring.com [207.69.200.74]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA22163 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 10:25:58 -0500 Received: from q (pool-209-138-48-167.tmpa.grid.net [209.138.48.167]) by smtp6.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA22671 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 10:25:59 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <000901bed9ce$a3969e00$1e04a8c0@q> From: "Dave Smith" To: References: Subject: Re: [JDEV] charsets (was: Protocol extension?) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 09:28:32 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2013.600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org > swedish and half in english. This would mean that if the client used > the locale or some default value, it would be wrong about half the > time, and I would have to fiddle with some pesky "select language" > { drop down list | command line paramter } about half the time. > However, if the roster info contained the *user's* locale, my client > could guess on that and be right most of the time. Right on. However, the only change to the jabber protocol would have to be the addition of the encoding attribute to all tags. The actual determination on the client side of what encoding to use on a particular message would be left up to client writers. On this note, it might be a good idea to start specifying some specs that client writers need to fufill in order to be "Officially Jabberfied". D. From owner-jdev@jabber.org Thu Jul 29 10:29:21 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA22189 for jdev-list; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 10:29:21 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from nautilus.netg.se (root@nautilus.netg.se [212.91.134.131]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA22186 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 10:29:17 -0500 Received: from valdez.netg.se (quest@valdez.netg.se [212.91.131.52]) by nautilus.netg.se (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id QAA08525 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 16:29:14 +0200 Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 16:29:14 +0200 (CEST) From: Anders Qvist To: jdev@jabber.org Subject: Re: [JDEV] More protocol issues... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org On Thu, 29 Jul 1999, Thomas D. Charron wrote: > On Thu, 29 Jul 1999 09:53:25 Lindsay.Marshall wrote: > > >Looking at the dtd in 0.6 I see that there appears to be no way of > >including a date/timestamp with a sent message. It seems to me to be > >vital that when I read a message I know the time at which it was > >generated - "meet you in 5 minutes" is no good if I dont see the > >message until 2 hours after it was generated. (sure you can timestamp > >on arrival at the client but that's no good if you are not logged in) > > > >Of course this may be there already and I just haven't found it yet. > > Good point.. One could add it in tags, but I'd say that > this would be much better to add in a tag within a > message.. > > I'd say that this can be added sometime next week, after Jer get's > the new server up and everything moved over.. A thought in the matter. Each mail server stamp a message. May there be a similar need here for multiple time stamps in Jabber? Maybe it should look like this: ... ... ... Or something similar: relay a.b.c ... Mind you, this sounds low-priority to me. Anders "Quest" Qvist NetGuide Scandinavia -- Why suffer scarcity? Look for the Open Source and enter a world of plenty! From owner-jdev@jabber.org Thu Jul 29 10:38:40 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA22247 for jdev-list; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 10:38:40 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from cheviot.ncl.ac.uk (cheviot.ncl.ac.uk [128.240.233.51]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA22242 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 10:38:35 -0500 From: Lindsay.Marshall@newcastle.ac.uk Received: from burnmoor.ncl.ac.uk by cheviot.ncl.ac.uk id (8.7.6/ for ncl.ac.uk) with ESMTP; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 15:38:33 +0100 (BST) Received: from catless.ncl.ac.uk (simonside.ncl.ac.uk [128.240.150.55]) by burnmoor.ncl.ac.uk (8.7.6/8.6.10-cf revision 2 for Solaris 2.x) with ESMTP id PAA09217; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 15:38:29 +0100 (BST) Message-Id: <199907291438.PAA09217@burnmoor.ncl.ac.uk> Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 15:41:28 +0100 (GMT) Subject: Re: [JDEV] charsets (was: Protocol extension?) To: jdev@jabber.org In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org > I think you misunderstood me. Replying to existing messages is easy: > the client should assume that you're answering in the same language as > the sender had in his message. However, every time you send a new > message, it's kind of dangerous to assume any language. I myself is a > typical example. I will probably write about half the messages in > swedish and half in english. This would mean that if the client used > the locale or some default value, it would be wrong about half the > time, and I would have to fiddle with some pesky "select language" > { drop down list | command line paramter } about half the time. > However, if the roster info contained the *user's* locale, my client > could guess on that and be right most of the time. > > Come to think of it, this would help bots and the like too, in that > they could talk to people in their native language. It would > definitively be nice if the roster info included preferred language > and probably charset as well. This sounds like a sensible suggestion. (However I still think that the language attribute should be included elsewhere as well in case people want to use it) > I was refering to the business of *selecting* language for a message. > The protocol in itself should definitively have the feature. Ah OK - my mistake. L. -- http://catless.ncl.ac.uk/Lindsay From owner-jdev@jabber.org Thu Jul 29 10:41:51 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA22277 for jdev-list; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 10:41:51 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from cheviot.ncl.ac.uk (cheviot.ncl.ac.uk [128.240.233.51]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA22272 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 10:41:45 -0500 From: Lindsay.Marshall@newcastle.ac.uk Received: from burnmoor.ncl.ac.uk by cheviot.ncl.ac.uk id (8.7.6/ for ncl.ac.uk) with ESMTP; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 15:41:44 +0100 (BST) Received: from catless.ncl.ac.uk (simonside.ncl.ac.uk [128.240.150.55]) by burnmoor.ncl.ac.uk (8.7.6/8.6.10-cf revision 2 for Solaris 2.x) with ESMTP id PAA09644; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 15:41:39 +0100 (BST) Message-Id: <199907291441.PAA09644@burnmoor.ncl.ac.uk> Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 15:44:38 +0100 (GMT) Subject: Re: [JDEV] More protocol issues... To: jdev@jabber.org cc: tcharron@my-deja.co In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org On 29 Jul, Thomas D. Charron wrote: > Good point.. One could add it in tags, but I'd say that this would be much better to add in a tag within a message.. So long as the format is well defined and resistant to date problems.... L. -- http://catless.ncl.ac.uk/Lindsay From owner-jdev@jabber.org Thu Jul 29 11:29:46 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA22854 for jdev-list; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 11:29:46 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from mc-qout4.whowhere.com (mc-qout4.whowhere.com [209.185.123.18]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA22851 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 11:29:43 -0500 Received: from Unknown/Local ([?.?.?.?]) by my-deja.com; Thu Jul 29 08:29:04 1999 To: jdev@jabber.org Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 08:29:04 -0700 From: "Thomas D. Charron" Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sent-Mail: off X-Mailer: MailCity Service Subject: Re: [JDEV] More protocol issues... X-Sender-Ip: 206.50.182.5 Organization: My Deja Email (http://www.my-deja.com:80) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org Yep.. I'd say the only one that we would want to implement AT THE MOMENT would be the timestamp with a cdata for the initial timestamp. Once we have that, adding child elements within the timestamp would be simple.. --- Thomas Charron On Thu, 29 Jul 1999 16:29:14 Anders Qvist wrote: >On Thu, 29 Jul 1999, Thomas D. Charron wrote: > >> On Thu, 29 Jul 1999 09:53:25 Lindsay.Marshall wrote: >> >> >Looking at the dtd in 0.6 I see that there appears to be no way of >> >including a date/timestamp with a sent message. It seems to me to be >> >vital that when I read a message I know the time at which it was >> >generated - "meet you in 5 minutes" is no good if I dont see the >> >message until 2 hours after it was generated. (sure you can timestamp >> >on arrival at the client but that's no good if you are not logged in) >> > >> >Of course this may be there already and I just haven't found it yet. >> >> Good point.. One could add it in tags, but I'd say that >> this would be much better to add in a tag within a >> message.. >> >> I'd say that this can be added sometime next week, after Jer get's >> the new server up and everything moved over.. > >A thought in the matter. Each mail server stamp a message. May there be >a similar need here for multiple time stamps in Jabber? Maybe it >should look like this: > > > ... > ... > ... > > >Or something similar: > > > relay > a.b.c > > > > ... > > >Mind you, this sounds low-priority to me. > >Anders "Quest" Qvist >NetGuide Scandinavia > >-- Why suffer scarcity? Look for the Open Source and enter a world of plenty! > > --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- Share what you know. Learn what you don't. From owner-jdev@jabber.org Thu Jul 29 11:44:34 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA23005 for jdev-list; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 11:44:34 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from calloway.mit.edu (CALLOWAY.MIT.EDU [18.55.1.20]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA23002 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 11:44:32 -0500 Received: (from belg4mit@localhost) by calloway.mit.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA32665; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 11:45:34 -0400 Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 11:45:34 -0400 From: Jerrad Pierce Message-Id: <199907291545.LAA32665@calloway.mit.edu> To: jdev@jabber.org Subject: [JDEV] char set selesction Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org In reply to your message from the not too distant future: next Thursday AD Reply-to: belg4mit@mit.edu Return-receipt-to: belg4mit@mit.edu Organization: a) Discordia b) none c) what's that? Content-Typo: gibberish, charset=ascii-art Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 11:45:32 EDT From: belg4mit why not a have a seperate command/tag which can be issued anywhere? say at the beginning of a conversation. and then if you switch within a message or any other tag, issue another ? -- Please take the time to answer the simple survey at: http://www.pthbb.org/cgi.bin/survey/ * __ * . \ | / . . . . . ((_ _____ . . . -- / \ -- . . . + . . _/\ oooooooooo. | * . . . * / ;M\_ . .oooooooooooo.oo. . . . . /\ . / :IMM\ ..oooooooooooo..oo. Jerrad Pierce /\ / \ / ;IIWMM ..oooooooooo....... 209 North Street + / \ / \ . / ;IIIIWM ...ooooooooo....... Randolph, MA 02368 / \ \ ___/ :;IIIIIWM ....ooo....o....... / \ \ / :: ;;IIIMI .....ooo......... http://www.pthbb.org / \ \ : :::;IIIM ..ooooooo.... __________________________ || || ::.....:::::: MOTD on Setting Orange, the 64th of Confusion, in the YOLD 3165: The state of having nothing to do is wasted on those who can afford to. From owner-jdev@jabber.org Thu Jul 29 11:50:25 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA23101 for jdev-list; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 11:50:25 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from calloway.mit.edu (CALLOWAY.MIT.EDU [18.55.1.20]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA23098 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 11:50:23 -0500 Received: (from belg4mit@localhost) by calloway.mit.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA32716; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 11:51:26 -0400 From: Jerrad Pierce Message-Id: <199907291551.LAA32716@calloway.mit.edu> To: jdev@jabber.org Subject: [JDEV] date format Organization: a) Discordia b) none c) what's that? Content-Typo: gibberish, charset=ascii-art Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 11:51:26 EDT Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org I would suggest going with the following, the logical ordering of increasing granularity. And to prevent a year 10K problem, the date field should be parsed by taking the right 2 bytes for day, next 2 for month, rest as year :-P date (@ UTC) yyyymmdd time (in UTC of course) hhmmss --jp -- Please take the time to answer the simple survey at: http://www.pthbb.org/cgi.bin/survey/ * __ * . \ | / . . . . . ((_ _____ . . . -- / \ -- . . . + . . _/\ oooooooooo. | * . . . * / ;M\_ . .oooooooooooo.oo. . . . . /\ . / :IMM\ ..oooooooooooo..oo. Jerrad Pierce /\ / \ / ;IIWMM ..oooooooooo....... 209 North Street + / \ / \ . / ;IIIIWM ...ooooooooo....... Randolph, MA 02368 / \ \ ___/ :;IIIIIWM ....ooo....o....... / \ \ / :: ;;IIIMI .....ooo......... http://www.pthbb.org / \ \ : :::;IIIM ..ooooooo.... __________________________ || || ::.....:::::: MOTD on Setting Orange, the 64th of Confusion, in the YOLD 3165: The state of having nothing to do is wasted on those who can afford to. From owner-jdev@jabber.org Thu Jul 29 12:14:48 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA23449 for jdev-list; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 12:14:48 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from nautilus.netg.se (root@nautilus.netg.se [212.91.134.131]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA23446 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 12:14:44 -0500 Received: from valdez.netg.se (quest@valdez.netg.se [212.91.131.52]) by nautilus.netg.se (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id SAA10864 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 18:14:42 +0200 Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 18:14:42 +0200 (CEST) From: Anders Qvist To: jdev@jabber.org Subject: Re: [JDEV] charsets (was: Protocol extension?) In-Reply-To: <199907291438.PAA09217@burnmoor.ncl.ac.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from QUOTED-PRINTABLE to 8bit by mondo.eppg.com id MAA23447 Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org On Thu, 29 Jul 1999 Lindsay.Marshall@newcastle.ac.uk wrote: > > > I think you misunderstood me. Replying to existing messages is easy: > > the client should assume that you're answering in the same language as > > the sender had in his message. However, every time you send a new > > message, it's kind of dangerous to assume any language. I myself is a > > typical example. I will probably write about half the messages in > > swedish and half in english. This would mean that if the client used > > the locale or some default value, it would be wrong about half the > > time, and I would have to fiddle with some pesky "select language" > > { drop down list | command line paramter } about half the time. > > However, if the roster info contained the *user's* locale, my client > > could guess on that and be right most of the time. > > > > Come to think of it, this would help bots and the like too, in that > > they could talk to people in their native language. It would > > definitively be nice if the roster info included preferred language > > and probably charset as well. > > This sounds like a sensible suggestion. (However I still think that the > language attribute should be included elsewhere as well in case people > want to use it) Looking att protocol examples from jabber.org: mbwana barbarbar! ... or something the like. This raises the interesting question about the field. Should it also be able to contain non-us-ascii characters? That could cause some complications for clients, right? If a Japanese person's name contains Kanji or Furigana characters, his name would be something like* "ÃUåS". We probably want to enforce user IDs in us ascii, though at least some roster info can be in any encoding... except group names and such. [snip] * typical; my netscape on Linux actually displays Kanji correctly. Let's cat /bin/uname instead. Anders "Quest" Qvist NetGuide Scandinavia -- Why suffer scarcity? Look for the Open Source and enter a world of plenty! From owner-jdev@jabber.org Thu Jul 29 12:23:16 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA23540 for jdev-list; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 12:23:16 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from mc-qout4.whowhere.com (mc-qout4.whowhere.com [209.185.123.18]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA23536 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 12:23:13 -0500 Received: from Unknown/Local ([?.?.?.?]) by my-deja.com; Thu Jul 29 09:22:33 1999 To: jdev@jabber.org Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 09:22:33 -0700 From: "Thomas D. Charron" Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sent-Mail: off X-Mailer: MailCity Service Subject: Re: [JDEV] char set selesction X-Sender-Ip: 206.50.182.6 Organization: My Deja Email (http://www.my-deja.com:80) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org On Thu, 29 Jul 1999 11:45:34 Jerrad Pierce wrote: >why not a have a seperate command/tag which can be issued anywhere? >say at the beginning of a conversation. >and then if you switch within a message or any other tag, issue another >? One of the things I was talking about earlier.. This part can already be done within the XML tag: Expat will deal with the charset type, I'm just not quite sure HOW.. --- Thomas Charron --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- Share what you know. Learn what you don't. From owner-jdev@jabber.org Thu Jul 29 12:24:53 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA23571 for jdev-list; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 12:24:53 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from mc-qout4.whowhere.com (mc-qout4.whowhere.com [209.185.123.18]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA23567 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 12:24:50 -0500 Received: from Unknown/Local ([?.?.?.?]) by my-deja.com; Thu Jul 29 09:24:12 1999 To: jdev@jabber.org Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 09:24:12 -0700 From: "Thomas D. Charron" Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sent-Mail: off X-Mailer: MailCity Service Subject: Re: [JDEV] date format X-Sender-Ip: 206.50.182.6 Organization: My Deja Email (http://www.my-deja.com:80) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org Actually, I beleive that there is a standard as part of the SMTP message formating RFC that we should probrably stick to.. I'll dig up the actual standard.. --- Thomas Charron On Thu, 29 Jul 1999 11:51:26 Jerrad Pierce wrote: >I would suggest going with the following, the logical ordering of increasing >granularity. And to prevent a year 10K problem, the date field should be >parsed by taking the right 2 bytes for day, next 2 for month, rest as year :-P > >date (@ UTC) >yyyymmdd > >time (in UTC of course) >hhmmss > >--jp >-- >Please take the time to answer the simple survey at: > http://www.pthbb.org/cgi.bin/survey/ > * __ * . > \ | / . . . . . ((_ > _____ . . . > -- / \ -- . . . + . . _/\ > oooooooooo. | * . . . * / ;M\_ . > .oooooooooooo.oo. . . . . /\ . / :IMM\ > ..oooooooooooo..oo. Jerrad Pierce /\ / \ / ;IIWMM > ..oooooooooo....... 209 North Street + / \ / \ . / ;IIIIWM > ...ooooooooo....... Randolph, MA 02368 / \ \ ___/ :;IIIIIWM > ....ooo....o....... / \ \ / :: ;;IIIMI > .....ooo......... http://www.pthbb.org / \ \ : :::;IIIM > ..ooooooo.... __________________________ || || ::.....:::::: >MOTD on Setting Orange, the 64th of Confusion, in the YOLD 3165: > >The state of having nothing to do is wasted on those who can afford to. > --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- Share what you know. Learn what you don't. From owner-jdev@jabber.org Thu Jul 29 13:23:50 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA24131 for jdev-list; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 13:23:50 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from calloway.mit.edu (CALLOWAY.MIT.EDU [18.55.1.20]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA24127 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 13:23:47 -0500 Received: (from belg4mit@localhost) by calloway.mit.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA00474; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 13:24:50 -0400 Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 13:24:50 -0400 From: Jerrad Pierce Message-Id: <199907291724.NAA00474@calloway.mit.edu> To: jdev@jabber.org Subject: [JDEV] date format, SMTP standard Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org In reply to your message from the not too distant future: next Thursday AD Reply-to: belg4mit@mit.edu Return-receipt-to: belg4mit@mit.edu Organization: a) Discordia b) none c) what's that? Content-Typo: gibberish, charset=ascii-art Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 13:24:48 EDT From: belg4mit Yes, of course SMTP has a format. But internally we should use something that is simple and convertible, since we're aiming for internationally viable program. And then have the SMTP transport use it's defined standard. -- Please take the time to answer the simple survey at: http://www.pthbb.org/cgi.bin/survey/ * __ * . \ | / . . . . . ((_ _____ . . . -- / \ -- . . . + . . _/\ oooooooooo. | * . . . * / ;M\_ . .oooooooooooo.oo. . . . . /\ . / :IMM\ ..oooooooooooo..oo. Jerrad Pierce /\ / \ / ;IIWMM ..oooooooooo....... 209 North Street + / \ / \ . / ;IIIIWM ...ooooooooo....... Randolph, MA 02368 / \ \ ___/ :;IIIIIWM ....ooo....o....... / \ \ / :: ;;IIIMI .....ooo......... http://www.pthbb.org / \ \ : :::;IIIM ..ooooooo.... __________________________ || || ::.....:::::: MOTD on Setting Orange, the 64th of Confusion, in the YOLD 3165: The state of having nothing to do is wasted on those who can afford to. From owner-jdev@jabber.org Thu Jul 29 13:43:34 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA24331 for jdev-list; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 13:43:34 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from mc-qout4.whowhere.com (mc-qout4.whowhere.com [209.185.123.18]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA24328 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 13:43:32 -0500 Received: from Unknown/Local ([?.?.?.?]) by my-deja.com; Thu Jul 29 10:42:50 1999 To: "Jabber Development" Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 10:42:50 -0700 From: "Thomas D. Charron" Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sent-Mail: off X-Mailer: MailCity Service Subject: [JDEV] International Char Sets.. X-Sender-Ip: 206.50.182.5 Organization: My Deja Email (http://www.my-deja.com:80) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org I think these questions in the expat FAQ may give some additional information regarding this conversation.. --- How can I get expat to deal with non-ASCII characters? By default, expat assumes that documents are encoded in UTF-8. In UTF-8, ASCII characters are represented by a single byte as they would be in ASCII, but non-ASCII characters are represented by a sequence of two or more bytes all with the 8th bit set. The encoding most widely used for European languages is ISO 8859-1 which is not compatible with UTF-8. To use this encoding, expat must be told either by supplying an argument of "iso-8859-1" to XML_ParserCreate, or by starting the document with . What encodings does expat support? expat has built in support for the following encodings: utf-8 utf-16 iso-8859-1 us-ascii Additional encodings can be supported by using XML_SetUnknownEncodingHandler --- Thomas Charron --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- Share what you know. Learn what you don't. From owner-jdev@jabber.org Thu Jul 29 14:25:00 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA24681 for jdev-list; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 14:25:00 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from cheviot.ncl.ac.uk (cheviot.ncl.ac.uk [128.240.233.51]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA24673 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 14:24:54 -0500 Received: from catless.ncl.ac.uk by cheviot.ncl.ac.uk id (8.7.6/ for ncl.ac.uk) with SMTP; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 19:24:50 +0100 (BST) Received: (qmail 7664 invoked by uid 16451); 29 Jul 1999 17:59:24 -0000 Message-ID: <19990729175924.7663.qmail@catless.ncl.ac.uk> From: "Lindsay F. Marshall" Subject: Re: [JDEV] charsets (was: Protocol extension?) To: jdev@jabber.org Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 18:59:24 +0100 (BST) In-Reply-To: from "Anders Qvist" at Jul 29, 99 06:14:42 pm X-Face: ,%J*lbsqmzpd./ZeNL+.O}#\rwJdMyTLFqP9k[Ti\q0e|\2JW)td#e(SSB7Z|NT=ScIb!Pt U7TRzA7t;P@%y%;H%?,o?w#bqNy5/F67sT>!f#!*yG!H}+/'L#;vPICisEYKD;b@n]o9lTn X.%%nlDSrS4_;xjUZuA@4&ti`xE^S&>y@Qf4nkU$\2W,in%bpM8,Qw^m4o%6OY)y5EY]-SU q >Looking att protocol examples from jabber.org: > > > mbwana > barbarbar! > The language code would be more like "sw" - there is a whole lot of stuff on locale specifiction that could be lifted without change to get the language coding. (I believe klingon has an official two letter code as well) The codes allow for structure as in en_uk and en_us and en_us_texas :-) >... or something the like. This raises the interesting question about >the field. Should it also be able to contain non-us-ascii >characters? That could cause some complications for clients, right? If >a Japanese person's name contains Kanji or Furigana characters, his >name would be something like* "ÃUåS". We probably want to enforce user >IDs in us ascii, though at least some roster info can be in any >encoding... except group names and such. I suspect that the only place where anything is set out for what cannot be non-ascii is hostnames which have a limited character set (RFC anyone?) I mean, I would get pretty hacked off if my name used non-ascii characters and you told me I couldn't use it. Computers are meant to assist people, right? Ever looked in on a Japanese IRC Channel? If a client can't/won't cope then so what? It could (like some mailers) display a message saying that the message is encoded in a character set that is not supported and allow various options for viewing the data. (In fact very often 7-bit ascii works anyway) The really nasty things start when you get a community of overlapping groups that use different encodings - this certainly happens with Russian and with Japanese. Flagged encodings would be a joy for sorting out this kind of mess! Allow encoding attributes on anything that can have CDATA, and ignore them if you want (so long as this fact is documented that's OK by me). (when I say "you", I mean the abstract you that writes clients of course) >* typical; my netscape on Linux actually displays Kanji correctly. Yup, Linux does a pretty good job with Japanese and Korean. Damn site better than other systems I wont name. L. -- http://catless.ncl.ac.uk/Lindsay From owner-jdev@jabber.org Thu Jul 29 14:25:00 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA24682 for jdev-list; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 14:25:00 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from cheviot.ncl.ac.uk (cheviot.ncl.ac.uk [128.240.233.51]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA24674 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 14:24:55 -0500 Received: from catless.ncl.ac.uk by cheviot.ncl.ac.uk id (8.7.6/ for ncl.ac.uk) with SMTP; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 19:24:51 +0100 (BST) Received: (qmail 7690 invoked by uid 16451); 29 Jul 1999 18:02:17 -0000 Message-ID: <19990729180216.7689.qmail@catless.ncl.ac.uk> From: "Lindsay F. Marshall" Subject: Re: [JDEV] date format, SMTP standard To: jdev@jabber.org Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 19:02:16 +0100 (BST) In-Reply-To: <199907291724.NAA00474@calloway.mit.edu> from "Jerrad Pierce" at Jul 29, 99 01:24:50 pm X-Face: ,%J*lbsqmzpd./ZeNL+.O}#\rwJdMyTLFqP9k[Ti\q0e|\2JW)td#e(SSB7Z|NT=ScIb!Pt U7TRzA7t;P@%y%;H%?,o?w#bqNy5/F67sT>!f#!*yG!H}+/'L#;vPICisEYKD;b@n]o9lTn X.%%nlDSrS4_;xjUZuA@4&ti`xE^S&>y@Qf4nkU$\2W,in%bpM8,Qw^m4o%6OY)y5EY]-SU qYes, of course SMTP has a format. >But internally we should use something that is simple and convertible, >since we're aiming for internationally viable program. >And then have the SMTP transport use it's defined standard. AAAAAGH, No!!! Don't start messing with "internal formats". The RFC822 format date is well defined and there is a whole slew of software that manipulates it already. Don't reinvent wheels! The only thing you might want to do is to cope with the internationalisation issues by having a month number rather than a month text (not sure what the RFC says about this, it's many years since I read it) L. -- http://catless.ncl.ac.uk/Lindsay From owner-jdev@jabber.org Thu Jul 29 15:12:49 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA25131 for jdev-list; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 15:12:49 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from calloway.mit.edu (CALLOWAY.MIT.EDU [18.55.1.20]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA25128 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 15:12:46 -0500 Received: (from belg4mit@localhost) by calloway.mit.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA00910; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 15:12:44 -0400 Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 15:12:44 -0400 From: Jerrad Pierce Message-Id: <199907291912.PAA00910@calloway.mit.edu> To: jdev@jabber.org Subject: [JDEV] date format Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org In reply to your message from the not too distant future: next Thursday AD Reply-to: belg4mit@mit.edu Return-receipt-to: belg4mit@mit.edu Organization: a) Discordia b) none c) what's that? Content-Typo: gibberish, charset=ascii-art Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 15:12:42 EDT From: belg4mit it's not as though it's reinventing the wheel, those are fairly common formats. they're even fairly similar to the holy RFC822 (except for time and date's granularity being oriented the same, which makes more sense). They have the advantage of cutting down on wasted bytes. Language day and month names don't need to be provided, they can be calculated on the client side (if the client cares, many probably won't eg; bots). Similarly for zone-info. IMHO PS> Besides, RFC822 uses yy, big no-no. I suggested extensible yyyy -- Please take the time to answer the simple survey at: http://www.pthbb.org/cgi.bin/survey/ * __ * . \ | / . . . . . ((_ _____ . . . -- / \ -- . . . + . . _/\ oooooooooo. | * . . . * / ;M\_ . .oooooooooooo.oo. . . . . /\ . / :IMM\ ..oooooooooooo..oo. Jerrad Pierce /\ / \ / ;IIWMM ..oooooooooo....... 209 North Street + / \ / \ . / ;IIIIWM ...ooooooooo....... Randolph, MA 02368 / \ \ ___/ :;IIIIIWM ....ooo....o....... / \ \ / :: ;;IIIMI .....ooo......... http://www.pthbb.org / \ \ : :::;IIIM ..ooooooo.... __________________________ || || ::.....:::::: MOTD on Setting Orange, the 64th of Confusion, in the YOLD 3165: The state of having nothing to do is wasted on those who can afford to. From owner-jdev@jabber.org Thu Jul 29 15:30:53 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA25302 for jdev-list; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 15:30:53 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from animal.blarg.net (root@animal.blarg.net [206.124.128.1]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA25299 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 15:30:49 -0500 Received: from animal.blarg.net (james@animal.blarg.net [206.124.128.1]) by animal.blarg.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id MAA05461 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 12:30:38 -0700 Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 12:30:37 -0700 (PDT) From: "James A. Hillyerd" To: jdev@jabber.org Subject: Re: [JDEV] date format In-Reply-To: <199907291912.PAA00910@calloway.mit.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org On Thu, 29 Jul 1999, Jerrad Pierce wrote: > snip > PS> Besides, RFC822 uses yy, big no-no. I suggested extensible yyyy > -- In my job we work a lot with client/server and multiple server setups. We've found that it's best to: 1. Store all dates in the GMT/UTC timezone, 2. Let the server generate the timestamp, not the client since the server is much more likely to be synced to atomic time, where-as the client could have a completely bogus time. Why not use a simple format like: YEAR.MO.DY HR:MI:SE It's elegant, with the larger units first, easy to parse (especially if you enforce padding with zeros) and doesn't favor any one OS/Language. Just my $0.02, which you are all free to ignore since I haven't contributed any code. =) -james [] James A. Hillyerd Java, Python & Perl Developer [] GPG Public Key Fingerprint for 1024D/9F956CDE (Expires 2000-02-01): [] C86F B073 92DF 1E24 EF0B 0118 6061 0FEC 9F95 6CDE From owner-jdev@jabber.org Thu Jul 29 15:45:58 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA25458 for jdev-list; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 15:45:58 -0500 Received: from satellite.misc.org (satellite.misc.org [207.141.25.130]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA25455 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 15:45:56 -0500 Received: from localhost (collinf@localhost) by satellite.misc.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA03954 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 12:44:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from collinf@kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu) X-Authentication-Warning: satellite.misc.org: collinf owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 12:44:33 -0700 (PDT) From: Collin Forbes X-Sender: collinf@satellite.misc.org To: jdev@jabber.org Subject: Re: [JDEV] date format In-Reply-To: <199907291912.PAA00910@calloway.mit.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org On Thu, 29 Jul 1999, Jerrad Pierce wrote: > PS> Besides, RFC822 uses yy, big no-no. I suggested extensible yyyy RFC 1123 changed the date syntax to use 4-digit years. This is also the format preferred by HTTP. .signature

Collin Forbes

From owner-jdev@jabber.org Thu Jul 29 16:36:51 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA25807 for jdev-list; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 16:36:51 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from zeus.kia.net ([205.252.89.69]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA25804 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 16:36:49 -0500 Received: from localhost (patrick@localhost) by zeus.kia.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id QAA08070 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 16:43:58 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 16:43:58 -0400 (EDT) From: patrick To: jdev@jabber.org Subject: Re: [JDEV] charsets (was: Protocol extension?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org > Come to think of it, this would help bots and the like too, in that > they could talk to people in their native language. It would > definitively be nice if the roster info included preferred language > and probably charset as well. > This is probably more of a profile issue. The Jabber protocol doesn't really get into this area - because you could also specify your age, because that could be relevant, or anything, really. What isn't neccessary for clients to understand a message shouldn't be in the protocol, but rather in a user profile stored with a separate mechanism, such as LDAP, which is very good for this sort of thing. There'll be a need for a jabber registry, or more than one, anyway. Patrick > > Anders "Quest" Qvist > NetGuide Scandinavia > > -- Why suffer scarcity? Look for the Open Source and enter a world of plenty! > > From owner-jdev@jabber.org Thu Jul 29 17:13:33 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA26107 for jdev-list; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 17:13:33 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from nautilus.netg.se (root@nautilus.netg.se [212.91.134.131]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA26104 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 17:13:30 -0500 Received: from valdez.netg.se (quest@valdez.netg.se [212.91.131.52]) by nautilus.netg.se (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id XAA15525 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 23:13:27 +0200 Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 23:13:27 +0200 (CEST) From: Anders Qvist To: jdev@jabber.org Subject: Re: [JDEV] date format In-Reply-To: <199907291551.LAA32716@calloway.mit.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org On Thu, 29 Jul 1999, Jerrad Pierce wrote: > I would suggest going with the following, the logical ordering of increasing > granularity. And to prevent a year 10K problem, the date field should be > parsed by taking the right 2 bytes for day, next 2 for month, rest > as year :-P > > date (@ UTC) > yyyymmdd There is actually a ratified ISO standard (ISO 8601) format for dates which noone seems to be using: yyyy-mm-dd. Have a look at http://www.w3.org/TR/NOTE-datetime at W3C. This format have (among other things) the benefit of being less prone to confusion for those who are not overly familiar to the Gregorian calendar. > time (in UTC of course) > hhmmss This too is described in aforementioned standard. See above URL. The format also includes time zine info if you want it to. Anders "Quest" Qvist NetGuide Scandinavia -- Why suffer scarcity? Look for the Open Source and enter a world of plenty! From owner-jdev@jabber.org Thu Jul 29 17:18:05 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA26155 for jdev-list; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 17:18:05 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from localhost (jeremie@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA26149 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 17:18:03 -0500 Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 17:18:03 -0500 (CDT) From: Jeremie X-Sender: jeremie@mondo.eppg.com To: Jabber Development Subject: [JDEV] Character Encodings and Languages thread In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org [note: I'm not sure I fully understand character encodings yet, so pardon any major blunders I'm making and correct me :] I've read up on this thread regarding character encodings, and I think we're going to have to take a different approach... The problem is that we are dealing with an XML document here, the conversation between the client and server is just a normal streaming XML document. I don't think it's possible to change character encodings on the fly within the document, it would be like changing byte-order randomly in any protocol stream. This would cause problems implementing clients and most importantly, there aren't any XML parsers that would support this type of thing. So adding an encoding="" to each message or tag wouldn't be feasible. But, we can still support the required international charset functionality I believe. When each client connects to the server, it identifies in the opening tag it's character encoding. By default it's UTF-8, but the server will and should support a range of other common encodings for clients to specify. The *entire stream* is then encoded in what was specified. The server is normally going to be sending back the default UTF-8 encoding. I'm not sure what it would take to support this, but there might be value in adding a server option to change the default outgoing encoding, so that servers that are primarily international can use the most common encoding for data sent back to those clients. What this means is that the server is going to have to translate internally between different encodings. This is where things start to get a little fuzzy for me... Is there a library out there for doing this sort of thing, is it not common in other software? The lowest common denominator is going to win here... if a US client on a US server is using UTF-8 in it's connection, and they receive a message from an international server in a different encoding, the US server will have to translate it to UTF-8 for that client. But an international server talking to an international server with both of their clients connected via the same alternate encoding would be able to use that encoding everywhere. Hopefully this arrangement can satisfy most/all of the requirements, since I can't see any other way of handling it besides just mandating once particular encoding(which seems like a bad thing). Now, on to the language issue... thankfully, it's already answered for us and part of XML: http://www.w3.org/TR/1998/REC-xml-19980210#sec-lang-tag More comments/suggestions Jer From owner-jdev@jabber.org Thu Jul 29 17:19:46 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA26188 for jdev-list; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 17:19:46 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from nautilus.netg.se (root@nautilus.netg.se [212.91.134.131]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA26185 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 17:19:43 -0500 Received: from valdez.netg.se (quest@valdez.netg.se [212.91.131.52]) by nautilus.netg.se (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id XAA15614 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 23:19:41 +0200 Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 23:19:40 +0200 (CEST) From: Anders Qvist To: jdev@jabber.org Subject: Jabber registry (was: [JDEV] charsets (was: Protocol extension?)) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org On Thu, 29 Jul 1999, patrick wrote: > > Come to think of it, this would help bots and the like too, in that > > they could talk to people in their native language. It would > > definitively be nice if the roster info included preferred language > > and probably charset as well. > > > This is probably more of a profile issue. The Jabber protocol > doesn't really get into this area - because you could also specify your > age, because that could be relevant, or anything, really. What isn't > neccessary for clients to understand a message shouldn't be in the > protocol, but rather in a user profile stored with a separate mechanism, > such as LDAP, which is very good for this sort of thing. > > There'll be a need for a jabber registry, or more than one, > anyway. Sure thing. I don't care how it is stored, so long as the information is easily available to jabber clients so they can look it up when sending messages. I saw the roster as being the single store for all relevant info on users. Being a newvomer I may have overlooked this part. Are there any docs on a profile store/registry? Any substantial thoughts in the matter? Anders "Quest" Qvist NetGuide Scandinavia -- Why suffer scarcity? Look for the Open Source and enter a world of plenty! From owner-jdev@jabber.org Thu Jul 29 17:25:48 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA26362 for jdev-list; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 17:25:48 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from localhost (jeremie@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA26359 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 17:25:46 -0500 Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 17:25:46 -0500 (CDT) From: Jeremie X-Sender: jeremie@mondo.eppg.com To: jdev@jabber.org Subject: [JDEV] Re: Jabber registry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org > Sure thing. I don't care how it is stored, so long as the information > is easily available to jabber clients so they can look it up when > sending messages. I saw the roster as being the single store for all > relevant info on users. Being a newvomer I may have overlooked this > part. Are there any docs on a profile store/registry? Any substantial > thoughts in the matter? Yes, I wrote up a quick proposal some time ago at: http://www.jabber.org/developers/archive/9904/msg00022.html It's partially implemented already, and I plan on having it ready to test by 0.7. There have been a few changes/updates and there needs to be a good deal more documenting/explaining on it, which is all on it's way after I get caught up on other things. Jer From owner-jdev@jabber.org Thu Jul 29 17:59:35 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA26799 for jdev-list; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 17:59:35 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from zeus.kia.net ([205.252.89.69]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA26796 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 17:59:33 -0500 Received: from scylla (client-151-200-117-193.bellatlantic.net [151.200.117.193]) by zeus.kia.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) with SMTP id SAA09895 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 18:06:34 -0400 (EDT) From: "Patrick McCuller" To: Subject: RE: [JDEV] Re: Jabber registry Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 17:57:37 -0400 Message-ID: <000001beda0d$5ed68660$c175c897@scylla> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org The proposal is fine as it is, but this is exactly what LDAP is *for*. You don't need to invent or write anything, including a data store, LDAP interfaces are well known, documented, and stable, and existing LDAP servers could be tapped for user profile information. LDAP servers can be backed up, replicated, and so on, all independantly of jabber. Additionally, LDAP authentication will be integrated into Jabber servers (a mod_ldap, undoubtably) eventually, probably sooner rather than later. With LDAP as the registry, users could search or update the registry using standard tools, or a web interface. LDAP client libraries are relatively easy to integrate with both clients and servers. There is also a good free LDAP server at http://www.openldap.org/ which I can vouch for. The web hosting company I work for uses it exclusively, and I do all of their LDAP-related development. Not to try to convince you or anything. :) Patrick > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-jdev@jabber.org [mailto:owner-jdev@jabber.org]On Behalf Of > Jeremie > Sent: Thursday, July 29, 1999 6:26 PM > To: jdev@jabber.org > Subject: [JDEV] Re: Jabber registry > > > > Sure thing. I don't care how it is stored, so long as the information > > is easily available to jabber clients so they can look it up when > > sending messages. I saw the roster as being the single store for all > > relevant info on users. Being a newvomer I may have overlooked this > > part. Are there any docs on a profile store/registry? Any substantial > > thoughts in the matter? > > Yes, I wrote up a quick proposal some time ago at: > http://www.jabber.org/developers/archive/9904/msg00022.html > > It's partially implemented already, and I plan on having it ready to test > by 0.7. There have been a few changes/updates and there needs to be a > good deal more documenting/explaining on it, which is all on it's way > after I get caught up on other things. > > Jer > > From owner-jdev@jabber.org Thu Jul 29 18:00:40 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA26820 for jdev-list; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 18:00:40 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from localhost (jeremie@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA26817 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 18:00:38 -0500 Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 18:00:38 -0500 (CDT) From: Jeremie X-Sender: jeremie@mondo.eppg.com To: jdev@jabber.org Subject: Re: [JDEV] timestamp/date (was: More protocol issues...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org > I'd say that this can be added sometime next week, after Jer get's the > new server up and everything moved over.. Yes, let's take a look at this sometime in the near future when I can actually have time to sit down and code with the idea and play a little. Also, on the date format issue, I would think using the same format as HTTP would be advisable and understandable by all. Jer From owner-jdev@jabber.org Thu Jul 29 18:03:59 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA26918 for jdev-list; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 18:03:59 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from smtp6.mindspring.com (smtp6.mindspring.com [207.69.200.74]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA26915 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 18:03:56 -0500 Received: from q (pool-209-138-48-167.tmpa.grid.net [209.138.48.167]) by smtp6.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA24459 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 18:03:39 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <001301beda0e$97dfb390$1e04a8c0@q> From: "Dave Smith" To: References: Subject: Re: [JDEV] Character Encodings and Languages thread Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 17:06:05 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2013.600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org Jer, you noted that it's not possible to change encodings on the fly. :) I would like to respectfully point out that it would be perfectly possible (and could even simplify the Jabber parse routines) if we modified the Jabber protocol to be one-document-to-one-packet instead of using a one-document-to-many-packets approach. This way, expat switches between encodings on the fly. Just an idea... :) Even if we do this, implementing the client is gonna be tricky since it's going to have to be able to parse a funkily (is that a word?!) encoded document.... Just out of curiosity, how does AIM handle this? Or ICQ for that matter? D. From owner-jdev@jabber.org Thu Jul 29 18:05:11 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA26956 for jdev-list; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 18:05:11 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from localhost (jeremie@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA26953 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 18:05:06 -0500 Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 18:05:05 -0500 (CDT) From: Jeremie X-Sender: jeremie@mondo.eppg.com To: jdev@jabber.org Subject: RE: [JDEV] Re: Jabber registry In-Reply-To: <000001beda0d$5ed68660$c175c897@scylla> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org > > The proposal is fine as it is, but this is exactly what LDAP is *for*. You > don't need to invent or write anything, including a data store, LDAP > interfaces are well known, documented, and stable, and existing LDAP servers > could be tapped for user profile information. LDAP servers can be backed up, > replicated, and so on, all independantly of jabber. Additionally, LDAP > authentication will be integrated into Jabber servers (a mod_ldap, > undoubtably) eventually, probably sooner rather than later. > > With LDAP as the registry, users could search or update the registry using > standard tools, or a web interface. LDAP client libraries are relatively > easy to integrate with both clients and servers. > > There is also a good free LDAP server at http://www.openldap.org/ which I > can vouch for. The web hosting company I work for uses it exclusively, and I > do all of their LDAP-related development. > > Not to try to convince you or anything. :) Yes, I agree with the LDAP argument completly, and mod_ldap will be a standard module available and one of the more common ones to use. BUT, the queries still need to come to the server via the normal XML path as the info/query proposal specifies, the server will then talk to the LDAP server(via mod_ldap). This way clients don't need to support LDAP natively, but most importantly, a good deal of the queries they are going to be making will be for dynamically retreived data from internally on the server and in other transports. Jer From owner-jdev@jabber.org Thu Jul 29 18:19:08 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA27171 for jdev-list; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 18:19:08 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from localhost (jeremie@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA27168 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 18:19:06 -0500 Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 18:19:05 -0500 (CDT) From: Jeremie X-Sender: jeremie@mondo.eppg.com To: jdev@jabber.org Subject: Re: [JDEV] Character Encodings and Languages thread In-Reply-To: <001301beda0e$97dfb390$1e04a8c0@q> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org > Jer, you noted that it's not possible to change encodings on the fly. :) I > would like to respectfully point out that it would be perfectly possible > (and could even simplify the Jabber parse routines) if we modified the > Jabber protocol to be one-document-to-one-packet instead of using a > one-document-to-many-packets approach. This way, expat switches between > encodings on the fly. Yes, the thought ran through my head, again :) That approach is very similiar to how the protocol originally was long long ago, but we moved to a more sreamed-document approach because of various issues. The heart of the matter is that if you stream multiple XML "chunks" together, you need some way of identifying the break between them, and this is difficult to do when each chunk can contain just about any binary pattern(based on the allowable characters and encodings within each chunk). >From what I understand, The W3C is working on a proposal for doing just this, streaming/packaging chunks of XML in a standard format. When a reccomendation comes out on this topic I think we want to revist this approach, but it's probably not worth the added complexity and time it would require at this point. > Just out of curiosity, how does AIM handle this? Or ICQ for that matter? That part I'm not sure about... anyone else? Jer From owner-jdev@jabber.org Thu Jul 29 18:20:51 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA27194 for jdev-list; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 18:20:51 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from localhost (jeremie@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA27191 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 18:20:49 -0500 Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 18:20:48 -0500 (CDT) From: Jeremie X-Sender: jeremie@mondo.eppg.com To: jdev@jabber.org Subject: Re: [JDEV] Busy server? In-Reply-To: <199907290909.KAA23779@burnmoor.ncl.ac.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org > Is anyone running a jabber server that is fully set up that I can hook > into to see how it all looks when active? I should have one up and running on the new server sometime next week, I need to build a little bridge to the database of Jabber Developers so that everyone automatically has an account first. Jer From owner-jdev@jabber.org Thu Jul 29 18:52:07 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA27700 for jdev-list; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 18:52:07 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from zeus.kia.net ([205.252.89.69]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA27697 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 18:52:02 -0500 Received: from localhost (patrick@localhost) by zeus.kia.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id SAA10865 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 18:59:11 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 18:59:11 -0400 (EDT) From: patrick To: jdev@jabber.org Subject: RE: [JDEV] Re: Jabber registry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org > > Yes, I agree with the LDAP argument completly, and mod_ldap will be a > standard module available and one of the more common ones to use. > > BUT, the queries still need to come to the server via the normal XML path > as the info/query proposal specifies, the server will then talk to the > LDAP server(via mod_ldap). This way clients don't need to support LDAP > natively, but most importantly, a good deal of the queries they are going > to be making will be for dynamically retreived data from internally on the > server and in other transports. Alright, that's a good argument. I now agree that the XML path is important. I do have a question, though, regarding 'permanent' profile information. This is stored per Jabber server, correct? So if I am a jabber user with an address of patrick@jabber.kia.net, then the jabber server at jabber.kia.net stores my profile (somewhere, maybe ldap, maybe not), correct? I think that will make it very nearly impossible to have a central registry of any relevance. For instance, I would not be able to find my long lost brother 'joshua's jabber profile without querying every jabber server in the world. And if I'm not querying them directly, then jabber.kia.net is. Right? Patrick > > Jer > > From owner-jdev@jabber.org Thu Jul 29 18:55:56 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA27779 for jdev-list; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 18:55:56 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from smtp.itis.com (smtp.itis.com [209.83.0.138]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA27776 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 18:55:53 -0500 Received: from gemini (a1-9.dodgeville.chorus.net [208.135.143.9]) by smtp.itis.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Chorus Networks) with ESMTP id RAA11179 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 17:55:50 -0500 (CDT) Received: from 192.168.0.3 by oakwind ([192.168.0.1] running VPOP3 - Unregistered) with SMTP for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 17:55:45 -0500 From: "Vivre Draco" Organization: Consortium of High Deities To: jdev@jabber.org Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 17:55:46 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: [JDEV] date format/charc&lang encoding References: <199907291912.PAA00910@calloway.mit.edu> In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.11) Message-Id: X-Server: VPOP3 V1.3.0b Unregistered Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org On 29 Jul 99,, James A. Hillyerd sounded off on Re: [JDEV] date format: > Why not use a simple format like: YEAR.MO.DY HR:MI:SE It's elegant, > with the larger units first, easy to parse (especially if you > enforce padding with zeros) and doesn't favor any one OS/Language. I agree, this seems like the most simple, straight-forward, and elegent method of doing it. Though the date should probably use dashes to conform to the W3C standard mentioned by Anders Qvist. Although... I did like that one person's suggestion of not limiting it to a 4 digit year ;) On 29 Jul 99,, Dave Smith sounded off on Re: [JDEV] Character Encodings and : > Jer, you noted that it's not possible to change encodings on the > fly. :) I would like to respectfully point out that it would be > perfectly possible (and could even simplify the Jabber parse > routines) if we modified the Jabber protocol to be > one-document-to-one-packet instead of using a > one-document-to-many-packets approach. This way, expat switches > between encodings on the fly. However, I'm guessing that this would add up to increase long-term bandwidth useage a lot. It's probably worth it for the ability to switch languages tho, unless you pay for Net access by the kilobyte... -- "C'mon fighter!.. Block it with your forehead!.. It scares the mages!" --Magnus the Great Copyright 1999 Vivre Draco (cfc@paganpaths.org) excelsior ad infinitum -- http://www.paganpaths.org/~cfc/ From owner-jdev@jabber.org Thu Jul 29 20:12:56 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA28496 for jdev-list; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 20:12:56 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from nuts.coginst.uwf.edu (nuts.coginst.uwf.edu [143.88.7.10]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA28493 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 20:12:53 -0500 Received: from hawthorne.na.com (host-209-215-12-152.pfn.bellsouth.net [209.215.12.152]) by nuts.coginst.uwf.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id TAA09796 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 19:18:55 -0500 (CDT) From: Dave Smith To: jdev@jabber.org Subject: [JDEV] Encodings & Simplicity Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 19:01:18 -0500 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.0.21] Content-Type: text/plain MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <99072919094200.01086@hawthorne.na.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org I've been thinking about this whole problem of encodings and would like to thrown one more log on the fire... :) We are assuming that in international circumstances, individuals will want to create Jabber packets that contain non-ASCII data. Okay, that's good and fine. But why force the Jabber packets that *enclose* the data to conform to the same standard? That is, why does a Jabber packet *have* to be encoded in anything besides UTF-8?! Jabber, by nature, doesn't care what **data** a packet carries, so long as the transport/etherex/etc can parse the actual packet. Am I making any sense? :) It would be *very* difficult to ensure that every client and every transport could understand 7 possible packet encodings. Why not just specify that all protocol-related information be in UTF-8 (which is what most programming languages use -- I don't know of a Chinese/Korean/Thai character based programming language) ? Furthermore, specify that individual tags within a packet could have an attribute telling the client what format the CDATA (for a particular tag) is in. This way, it's up to the client to decode funky chars and the server/transport side of things only worries about the encoding... These are just a few thoughts I had..probably doesn't solve everything, but I think it simplfies the issue...doesn't it? :) D. From owner-jdev@jabber.org Thu Jul 29 21:37:32 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA29156 for jdev-list; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 21:37:32 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from calloway.mit.edu (CALLOWAY.MIT.EDU [18.55.1.20]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA29153 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 21:37:29 -0500 Received: (from belg4mit@localhost) by calloway.mit.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA02137; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 21:37:29 -0400 Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 21:37:29 -0400 From: Jerrad Pierce Message-Id: <199907300137.VAA02137@calloway.mit.edu> To: jdev@jabber.org Subject: [JDEV] date, encoding Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org In reply to your message from the not too distant future: next Thursday AD Reply-to: belg4mit@mit.edu Return-receipt-to: belg4mit@mit.edu Organization: a) Discordia b) none c) what's that? Content-Typo: gibberish, charset=ascii-art Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 21:37:27 EDT From: belg4mit yes, my propoasal for date would have been easiest for regexp (.*)(..)(..) $year = $1; $month = $2; $day = $3; Using dashes would work too... ($year, $month, $day) = split("-", "yyyyy?-mm-dd"); and you can still allow for any-length year. Dave beat me to the punch on the encoding. pass encoding (I still think it'd work better as a tag rather than an attribute?). And then leave it up to the client as to whether or not it cares about/can handle it. As long it gets passed along in an 8-bit format, right? -- Please take the time to answer the simple survey at: http://www.pthbb.org/cgi.bin/survey/ * __ * . \ | / . . . . . ((_ _____ . . . -- / \ -- . . . + . . _/\ oooooooooo. | * . . . * / ;M\_ . .oooooooooooo.oo. . . . . /\ . / :IMM\ ..oooooooooooo..oo. Jerrad Pierce /\ / \ / ;IIWMM ..oooooooooo....... 209 North Street + / \ / \ . / ;IIIIWM ...ooooooooo....... Randolph, MA 02368 / \ \ ___/ :;IIIIIWM ....ooo....o....... / \ \ / :: ;;IIIMI .....ooo......... http://www.pthbb.org / \ \ : :::;IIIM ..ooooooo.... __________________________ || || ::.....:::::: MOTD on Setting Orange, the 64th of Confusion, in the YOLD 3165: The state of having nothing to do is wasted on those who can afford to. From owner-jdev@jabber.org Thu Jul 29 22:58:01 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA29710 for jdev-list; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 22:58:01 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from nuts.coginst.uwf.edu (nuts.coginst.uwf.edu [143.88.7.10]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA29707 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 22:57:58 -0500 Received: from hawthorne.na.com (host-209-215-12-44.pfn.bellsouth.net [209.215.12.44]) by nuts.coginst.uwf.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id WAA05316 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 22:04:00 -0500 (CDT) From: Dave Smith To: jdev@jabber.org Subject: [JDEV] Further encoding thoughts Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 21:39:17 -0500 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.0.21] Content-Type: text/plain MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <99072921544800.02781@hawthorne.na.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org One more thought... What if we did something along these lines for encoding... APASSWORD So, everytime a tag is encountered, all CDATA segments following will be properly escaped and setup to contain data in the specified encoding, until another encoding tag is encountered. When the server or client recvs this packet and begins walking the DOM, it can be setup to appropriately handle different encodings -- if it supports them. Otherwise, it can make a "best-guess" about the data, without bothering to check for encoding "hints" and try and read it without decoding?! The only downside to such an approach would be the fact that it requires the packet to be reassembled in the order it was created (although any decent DOM should do this, right?). D. From owner-jdev@jabber.org Fri Jul 30 00:29:39 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA30203 for jdev-list; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 00:29:39 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from exchange.starbasecorp.com (exchange.starbasecorp.com [12.13.2.6]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA30200 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 00:29:36 -0500 Received: from geocities.com (adsl-216-103-55-119.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [216.103.55.119]) by exchange.starbasecorp.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2448.0) id P708H9JS; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 21:29:38 -0700 Message-ID: <37A12A81.5FA77536@geocities.com> Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 21:30:57 -0700 From: "Jon A. Cruz" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.5-15 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: jdev@jabber.org Subject: Re: [JDEV] char set selesction References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org "Thomas D. Charron" wrote: > On Thu, 29 Jul 1999 11:45:34 Jerrad Pierce wrote: > >why not a have a seperate command/tag which can be issued anywhere? > >say at the beginning of a conversation. > >and then if you switch within a message or any other tag, issue another > >? > > One of the things I was talking about earlier.. This part can already be done within the XML tag: > > > > Expat will deal with the charset type, I'm just not quite sure HOW.. One of the ways is to throw a fatal error. Not something I'd like to see. -- "My new computer's got the clocks, it rocks But it was obsolete before I opened the box" - W.A.Y. From owner-jdev@jabber.org Fri Jul 30 00:32:55 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA30218 for jdev-list; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 00:32:55 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from hermes.ezwv.com (hermes.ezwv.com [208.163.10.16]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA30215 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 00:32:52 -0500 Received: from muar241 (ip156074.dlup.hunt.ezwv.com [208.168.156.74]) by hermes.ezwv.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id AAA11750 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 00:27:41 -0400 Message-ID: <005701beda44$95465b80$4a9ca8d0@marshall.edu> From: "Paul L. McNeely" To: References: Subject: Re: [JDEV] date format Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 00:32:49 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org I got a better Idea why not make it so the year section can be of any size? Why you ask well, what happen when we hit 9999??? Y3K???? Ok, its sounds stupid but gee, why not start now? Heck those folks from computer company's that programmed in 2 digits never thought the software/hardware would be around that long, who's to say jabber won't? If a date was sent like 1999.2.3 .. (Ok, that DOES look like a startdate.) You could parse the date by the periods instead of digits, leave room for future expansion. Crazy, yes, but something to think about. Why make the same mistake twice? BTW, you can all stop laughing now. :) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Paul L. McNeely (drderail@i.am) ICQ# 1305664 Web Page: http://i.am/drderail Voicemail: 1-888-TELEBOT Extension: 37337245 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- West Virginia Christian Chat Mailing List Sign up at onelist.com or E-mail me. Marshall University Chat Mailing List http://muchat.listbot.com -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- ----- Original Message ----- From: Collin Forbes To: Sent: Thursday, July 29, 1999 3:44 PM Subject: Re: [JDEV] date format On Thu, 29 Jul 1999, Jerrad Pierce wrote: > PS> Besides, RFC822 uses yy, big no-no. I suggested extensible yyyy RFC 1123 changed the date syntax to use 4-digit years. This is also the format preferred by HTTP. .signature

Collin Forbes

From owner-jdev@jabber.org Fri Jul 30 00:46:50 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA30460 for jdev-list; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 00:46:50 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from exchange.starbasecorp.com (exchange.starbasecorp.com [12.13.2.6]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA30455 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 00:46:47 -0500 Received: from geocities.com (adsl-216-103-55-119.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [216.103.55.119]) by exchange.starbasecorp.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2448.0) id P708H9JX; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 21:46:59 -0700 Message-ID: <37A12E8D.1A4EBF62@geocities.com> Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 21:48:13 -0700 From: "Jon A. Cruz" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.5-15 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: jdev@jabber.org Subject: Re: [JDEV] Further encoding thoughts References: <99072921544800.02781@hawthorne.na.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org Dave Smith wrote: > One more thought... > > What if we did something along these lines for encoding... > > > > > > APASSWORD > > > So, everytime a tag is encountered, all CDATA segments following > will be properly escaped and setup to contain data in the specified encoding, > until another encoding tag is encountered. When the server or client recvs this > packet and begins walking the DOM, it can be setup to appropriately handle > different encodings -- if it supports them. Otherwise, it can make a > "best-guess" about the data, without bothering to check for encoding "hints" and > try and read it without decoding?! > > The only downside to such an approach would be the fact that it requires the > packet to be reassembled in the order it was created (although any decent DOM > should do this, right?). > > D. Earlier internationalization schemes used various forms of escapes to switch encodings/languages. Using escapes tends to bring on a plethora of extra problems. Personally, I really think it should be avoided. -- "My new computer's got the clocks, it rocks But it was obsolete before I opened the box" - W.A.Y. From owner-jdev@jabber.org Fri Jul 30 00:49:30 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA30482 for jdev-list; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 00:49:30 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from mb3.mailbank.com (mb3.mailbank.com [209.133.104.8]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA30479 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 00:49:28 -0500 Received: from joshuaha (98CDED6E.ipt.aol.com [152.205.237.110]) by mb3.mailbank.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id VAA25450 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 21:49:23 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990729214547.007a2e70@mh.mailbank.com> X-Sender: Joshua%Haberman.com@mh.mailbank.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 21:45:47 -0700 To: jdev@jabber.org From: Joshua Haberman Subject: Re: [JDEV] date format In-Reply-To: <005701beda44$95465b80$4a9ca8d0@marshall.edu> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org At 12:32 AM 7/30/99 -0400, you wrote: >Why you ask well, what happen when we hit 9999??? Y3K???? Wouldn't that be Y10K? ;-) --Joshua Haberman From owner-jdev@jabber.org Fri Jul 30 00:49:52 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA30491 for jdev-list; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 00:49:52 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from piinbh2.ms.com (piinbh2.ms.com [199.89.64.72]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA30486 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 00:49:48 -0500 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by piinbh2.ms.com (8.8.6/fw v1.22) id AAA10762 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 00:49:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from unknown(161.144.196.62) by piinbh2 via smap (4.1) id xma009577; Fri, 30 Jul 99 00:48:56 -0400 Received: from ms.com (es2it113.morgan.com [161.144.181.113]) by essmh1.morgan.com (8.8.5/imap+ldap v2.3) with ESMTP id MAA16626 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 12:48:53 +0800 (HKT) Message-ID: <37A12EB5.4F4C4A01@ms.com> Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 12:48:53 +0800 From: Tony Chang Organization: Morgan Stanley Dean Witter & Co. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: jdev@jabber.org Subject: Re: [JDEV] date format References: <005701beda44$95465b80$4a9ca8d0@marshall.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org Hi, > I got a better Idea why not make it so the year section can be of any size? > Why you ask well, what happen when we hit 9999??? Y3K???? Ok, its sounds Sounds cool. But when it's Y3K, I am sure we don't need those ICQ-stuff anymore. We would be communicating via brain waves. :-) Tony From owner-jdev@jabber.org Fri Jul 30 00:49:53 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA30492 for jdev-list; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 00:49:53 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from exchange.starbasecorp.com (exchange.starbasecorp.com [12.13.2.6]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA30485 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 00:49:48 -0500 Received: from geocities.com (adsl-216-103-55-119.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [216.103.55.119]) by exchange.starbasecorp.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2448.0) id P708H9J5; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 21:50:00 -0700 Message-ID: <37A12F46.606CD26C@geocities.com> Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 21:51:19 -0700 From: "Jon A. Cruz" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.5-15 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: jdev@jabber.org Subject: Re: [JDEV] charsets (was: Protocol extension?) References: <19990729175924.7663.qmail@catless.ncl.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org "Lindsay F. Marshall" wrote: > > I suspect that the only place where anything is set out for what cannot > be non-ascii is hostnames which have a limited character set (RFC > anyone?) I mean, I would get pretty hacked off if my name used > non-ascii characters and you told me I couldn't use it. Computers are > meant to assist people, right? Ever looked in on a Japanese IRC > Channel? If a client can't/won't cope then so what? It could (like > some mailers) display a message saying that the message is encoded in > a character set that is not supported and allow various options for > viewing the data. (In fact very often 7-bit ascii works anyway) The > really nasty things start when you get a community of overlapping > groups that use different encodings - this certainly happens with > Russian and with Japanese. Flagged encodings would be a joy for > sorting out this kind of mess! Allow encoding attributes on anything > that can have CDATA, and ignore them if you want (so long as this fact > is documented that's OK by me). (when I say "you", I mean the abstract > you that writes clients of course) > > >* typical; my netscape on Linux actually displays Kanji correctly. > > Yup, Linux does a pretty good job with Japanese and Korean. Damn site > better than other systems I wont name. Please, please, please, please, please, please don't get into multiple encodings. Please. There are all sorts of potential problems. Specifying UTF-8 as "the" official encoding would simplify things greatly. First of all, From the XML spec http://www.w3.org/TR/1998/REC-xml-19980210 section 2.2 states: "All XML processors must accept the UTF-8 and UTF-16 encodings of 10646;" Thus, since we are basing things on XML, we can declare that if a client can't handle UTF-8, then it has a broken XML implementation. (if not, I can write them code. It's not too hard :-) Any arbitrary client has all the information needed to convert it's local encoding to Unicode and thus UTF-8. But a different client might not have the needed information to decode that. e.g. in talking to someone from Japan, my English Windows knows how to display Japanese Unicode, but then it is missing the conversions for EUC-JP, and would not be able to display his Japanese correctly. In doing the current version of COM, Microsoft realized this and made the declaration that all COM strings are Unicode. Period. It doesn't even matter that Windows95 pretty much otherwise does not support Unicode (for the most part, only two Win95 Unicode calls actually work). COM Strings are Unicode. Also, remember that this is not just an international issue. To people in the US, one on a Mac and one on a Windows machine will start to hit the same problem (anyone remember the early web days where quotes would be missing from web pages?). Throw Linux/Unix in the mix and you have three different encodings for US English right off the bat. Ouch. Seriously, I want to ask if there are any reason for not using Unicode/UTF-8 as the one encoding? Now, as some people pointed out, encoding itself does not carry enough information. You also need language, and specified in such a way as to keep pertinent info. Thankfully the smart people who came up with the XML standard thought of that. Section 2.12 addresses this by specifying special attribute named "xml:lang". http://www.w3.org/TR/1998/REC-xml-19980210#sec-lang-tag BTW, this (lang-country-region) is what Taligent did for adding into Java for 1.1 (they had many good engineers, including Dr. Mark Davis, president of the Unicode Consortium). The same technology but for C/C++ is now put out by IBM in a free library, the IBM Classes for Unicode. -- "My new computer's got the clocks, it rocks But it was obsolete before I opened the box" - W.A.Y. From owner-jdev@jabber.org Fri Jul 30 01:01:40 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA30643 for jdev-list; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 01:01:40 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from subcellar.mwci.net (subcellar.mwci.net [205.254.160.2]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA30640 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 01:01:38 -0500 Received: from opps (kb0lcj-10.dbq.mwci.net [209.207.4.10]) by subcellar.mwci.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id AAA08306 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 00:01:36 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <00c701beda48$99fabf00$0a04cfd1@mwci.net> From: "Sean Heber" To: Subject: [JDEV] AOL and Apple working on "Standard" IM protocol? Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 00:01:35 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,39928,00.html Have you guys seen this or is it old news? Quote: "America Online said it has formed an advisory group that includes its chief technology officer, Marc Andreessen, and Apple Computer's interim chief executive, Steve Jobs, to set standards for sending instant messages online." Hmm... l8r Sean ===============================------ | http://www.gimmick.org/ | http://www.bebits.com/ | | "I have no respect for a man who can only spell a word one way." | - Samuel Clemens (Mark Twain) ===============================------ From owner-jdev@jabber.org Fri Jul 30 01:48:55 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA30969 for jdev-list; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 01:48:55 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from katie.tranzoa.com (root@sea-ts3-p25.wolfenet.com [205.163.74.25]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA30966 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 01:48:51 -0500 Received: from tara.tranzoa.com (IDENT:postfix@tara.tranzoa.com [10.1.1.66]) by katie.tranzoa.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA11771 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 22:48:42 -0700 Received: by tara.tranzoa.com (Postfix, from userid 0) id 7DEB1E682B; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 22:48:40 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 22:48:40 -0700 From: Scott Robinson To: jdev@jabber.org Subject: [JDEV] Encoding and dating thoughts Message-ID: <19990729224839.A2338@tara.tranzoa.com> References: <99072921544800.02781@hawthorne.na.com> <37A12E8D.1A4EBF62@geocities.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary=AhhlLboLdkugWU4S; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.6i In-Reply-To: <37A12E8D.1A4EBF62@geocities.com>; from Jon A. Cruz on Thu, Jul 29, 1999 at 09:48:13PM -0700 X-Disclaimer: The contents of this e-mail, unless otherwise stated, are the property of David Ryland Scott Robinson. Copyright (C)1999, All Rights Reservered. X-Operating-System: Linux tara.tranzoa.com 2.2.5-15 Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org --AhhlLboLdkugWU4S Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Here are my thoughts on this. First off, escaping is evil. If anything, we should have a packaging method. The default, when no tag has been specified, should be UTF-8. (the XML "forced" standard. ;)) I would point out, to those that have suggested that we should not get into internationalization, that Jabber is _NOT_ a US only product. Or, if we want it to be, we're shooting ourselves in the foot. I would also like to make a suggestion on the date format. In the next couple of years all UNIX systems will be forced to move to 64 bit (or above) integers. Why? 2038 =3D=3D $maxint. The simple solution would be to just bl= it the int and RFC ???? timezone. ex. "12341234 PST" If anyone sees a reason to add something I'm missing, by all means mention it, but shouldn't this take care of all our problems easily? Scott. * Jon A. Cruz translated into ASCII [Thu, Jul 29, 1999 at 09:48:13PM -0700]= [<37A12E8D.1A4EBF62@geocities.com>] > Dave Smith wrote: >=20 > > One more thought... > > > > What if we did something along these lines for encoding... > > > > > > > > > > > > APASSWORD > > > > > > So, everytime a tag is encountered, all CDATA segments follo= wing > > will be properly escaped and setup to contain data in the specified enc= oding, > > until another encoding tag is encountered. When the server or client re= cvs this > > packet and begins walking the DOM, it can be setup to appropriately han= dle > > different encodings -- if it supports them. Otherwise, it can make a > > "best-guess" about the data, without bothering to check for encoding "h= ints" and > > try and read it without decoding?! > > > > The only downside to such an approach would be the fact that it require= s the > > packet to be reassembled in the order it was created (although any dece= nt DOM > > should do this, right?). > > > > D. >=20 > Earlier internationalization schemes used various forms of escapes to swi= tch > encodings/languages. Using escapes tends to bring on a plethora of extra = problems. > Personally, I really think it should be avoided. >=20 > -- > "My new computer's got the clocks, it rocks > But it was obsolete before I opened the box" - W.A.Y. >=20 >=20 >=20 --AhhlLboLdkugWU4S Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v0.9.8 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iEYEARECAAYFAjehPLcACgkQ1MPeBfASdFDn4wCeIpwhvChJjJ6yRYoFYZeS5Er2 jJgAn1khYgFjzlR+KGO1k9sQ5BirB1YR =SuMb -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --AhhlLboLdkugWU4S-- From owner-jdev@jabber.org Fri Jul 30 02:32:17 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA31237 for jdev-list; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 02:32:17 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from zeus.kia.net ([205.252.89.69]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA31234 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 02:32:14 -0500 Received: from scylla (client-151-200-123-10.bellatlantic.net [151.200.123.10]) by zeus.kia.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) with SMTP id CAA04570 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 02:39:23 -0400 (EDT) From: "Patrick McCuller" To: Subject: RE: [JDEV] Encoding and dating thoughts Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 02:30:14 -0400 Message-ID: <000901beda54$fbc74080$0a7bc897@scylla> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 In-Reply-To: <19990729224839.A2338@tara.tranzoa.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org > > I would also like to make a suggestion on the date format. In the next > couple of years all UNIX systems will be forced to move to 64 bit > (or above) > integers. Why? 2038 == $maxint. The simple solution would be to just blit > the int and RFC ???? timezone. ex. "12341234 PST" Don't count on it happening soon. By this logic, we would have been worrying about the Y2K problem in 1962. We only really started worrying about it, arguably, less than two years ago. That's a generalization, of course, but closer to the truth than 1962. Patrick From owner-jdev@jabber.org Fri Jul 30 03:40:31 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id DAA31777 for jdev-list; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 03:40:31 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from zeus.kia.net ([205.252.89.69]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA31774 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 03:40:29 -0500 Received: from scylla (client-151-200-118-188.bellatlantic.net [151.200.118.188]) by zeus.kia.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) with SMTP id DAA05077 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 03:47:36 -0400 (EDT) From: "Patrick McCuller" To: "Jdev@Jabber. Org" Subject: [JDEV] existing protocol questions Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 03:38:26 -0400 Message-ID: <000601beda5e$82715900$bc76c897@scylla> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org Your help appreciated: 1. From the client: how do I query a list of my roster groups? Although I can get a response detailing specific groups with a query like this: I find I have to specify the groups I want to fetch. How do I find out what groups I have set? Did not work. I'm missing something, I think. What is it? 2. Why are errors reported in a instead of an ? It would seem more logical to me, again, I'm missing something, yes? 3. What is the significance of the status type? . Is it freeform or is there a set of acceptable types? 4. How does the message extension work? What is its intended usage? Patrick From owner-jdev@jabber.org Fri Jul 30 04:36:17 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id EAA32212 for jdev-list; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 04:36:17 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from cheviot.ncl.ac.uk (cheviot.ncl.ac.uk [128.240.233.51]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id EAA32208; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 04:36:12 -0500 From: Lindsay.Marshall@newcastle.ac.uk Received: from burnmoor.ncl.ac.uk by cheviot.ncl.ac.uk id (8.7.6/ for ncl.ac.uk) with ESMTP; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 09:36:09 +0100 (BST) Received: from catless.ncl.ac.uk (simonside.ncl.ac.uk [128.240.150.55]) by burnmoor.ncl.ac.uk (8.7.6/8.6.10-cf revision 2 for Solaris 2.x) with ESMTP id JAA19851; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 09:36:04 +0100 (BST) Message-Id: <199907300836.JAA19851@burnmoor.ncl.ac.uk> Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 09:39:02 +0100 (GMT) Subject: Re: [JDEV] Character Encodings and Languages thread To: jdev@jabber.org cc: jeremie@jabber.org In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org > The problem is that we are dealing with an XML document here, the > conversation between the client and server is just a normal streaming XML > document. I don't think it's possible to change character encodings on > the fly within the document, it would be like changing byte-order randomly > in any protocol stream. This would cause problems implementing clients > and most importantly, there aren't any XML parsers that would support this > type of thing. So adding an encoding="" to each message or tag wouldn't > be feasible. Sorry, but this is nonsense. We are *only* talking about CDATA here, that is 8 bit bytes. The XML parser simply pulls these out without interpretation (apart from escaped characters) and gives them to you. (Well, at least that's what my XML parser does!). I am free to interpret those bytes in anyway I chose. The encoding is only relevant to the rendering software, it has nothing to do with the parser at all. Implementing it is essentially trivial. > But, we can still support the required international charset functionality > I believe. When each client connects to the server, it identifies in the > opening tag it's character encoding. By default it's UTF-8, but > the server will and should support a range of other common encodings for > clients to specify. The *entire stream* is then encoded in what was > specified. The server is normally going to be sending back the default > UTF-8 encoding. I'm not sure what it would take to support this, but > there might be value in adding a server option to change the default > outgoing encoding, so that servers that are primarily international can > use the most common encoding for data sent back to those clients. This doesn't help at all. What I want to be able to do is to communicate with my friends in Korea in korean, my friends in japan in Japanese and use English here. I want to do this over a single message stream. Not everyone will have UTF-8 support on their machines. > What this means is that the server is going to have to translate > internally between different encodings. This is where things start to get > a little fuzzy for me... Is there a library out there for doing this sort > of thing, is it not common in other software? The server need do nothing at all if you allow the encoding attribute - it simply passes on the bytes and the client deals with it (or not). Having the server do anything is just silly. Always remember that it is just CDATA!!! > and part of XML: > http://www.w3.org/TR/1998/REC-xml-19980210#sec-lang-tag Thanks for the ref. I knew it was all well defined. L. -- http://catless.ncl.ac.uk/Lindsay From owner-jdev@jabber.org Fri Jul 30 04:41:20 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id EAA32300 for jdev-list; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 04:41:20 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from cheviot.ncl.ac.uk (cheviot.ncl.ac.uk [128.240.233.51]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id EAA32297 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 04:41:17 -0500 From: Lindsay.Marshall@newcastle.ac.uk Received: from burnmoor.ncl.ac.uk by cheviot.ncl.ac.uk id (8.7.6/ for ncl.ac.uk) with ESMTP; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 09:41:14 +0100 (BST) Received: from catless.ncl.ac.uk (simonside.ncl.ac.uk [128.240.150.55]) by burnmoor.ncl.ac.uk (8.7.6/8.6.10-cf revision 2 for Solaris 2.x) with ESMTP id JAA20454; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 09:41:08 +0100 (BST) Message-Id: <199907300841.JAA20454@burnmoor.ncl.ac.uk> Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 09:44:06 +0100 (GMT) Subject: Re: [JDEV] date, encoding To: jdev@jabber.org cc: belg4mit@MIT.EDU In-Reply-To: <199907300137.VAA02137@calloway.mit.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org > Dave beat me to the punch on the encoding. pass encoding (I still think it'd > work better as a tag rather than an attribute?). And then leave it up to the > client as to whether or not it cares about/can handle it. As long it gets > passed along in an 8-bit format, right? No, no, no, it is an attribute *not* a tag! You can have an encpoding attribute on any tag that has CDATA. Other wise you then having to allow embedding of the tag inside anythign with CDATA. An attribute is much simpler. L. -- http://catless.ncl.ac.uk/Lindsay From owner-jdev@jabber.org Fri Jul 30 04:43:18 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id EAA32347 for jdev-list; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 04:43:18 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from cheviot.ncl.ac.uk (cheviot.ncl.ac.uk [128.240.233.51]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id EAA32343 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 04:43:15 -0500 From: Lindsay.Marshall@newcastle.ac.uk Received: from burnmoor.ncl.ac.uk by cheviot.ncl.ac.uk id (8.7.6/ for ncl.ac.uk) with ESMTP; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 09:43:11 +0100 (BST) Received: from catless.ncl.ac.uk (simonside.ncl.ac.uk [128.240.150.55]) by burnmoor.ncl.ac.uk (8.7.6/8.6.10-cf revision 2 for Solaris 2.x) with ESMTP id JAA20732; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 09:43:07 +0100 (BST) Message-Id: <199907300843.JAA20732@burnmoor.ncl.ac.uk> Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 09:46:05 +0100 (GMT) Subject: Re: [JDEV] Further encoding thoughts To: jdev@jabber.org cc: dsmith@ai.uwf.edu In-Reply-To: <99072921544800.02781@hawthorne.na.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org On 29 Jul, Dave Smith wrote: > One more thought... > > What if we did something along these lines for encoding... > > > > > > APASSWORD > This is just too verbose. APASSWORD is much cleaner and simpler (and avoids all the ordering problems. L. -- http://catless.ncl.ac.uk/Lindsay From owner-jdev@jabber.org Fri Jul 30 08:00:41 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA00596 for jdev-list; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 08:00:41 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from mc-qout4.whowhere.com (mc-qout4.whowhere.com [209.185.123.18]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA00593 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 08:00:38 -0500 Received: from Unknown/Local ([?.?.?.?]) by my-deja.com; Fri Jul 30 05:00:03 1999 To: jdev@jabber.org Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 05:00:03 -0700 From: "Thomas D. Charron" Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sent-Mail: off X-Mailer: MailCity Service Subject: Re: [JDEV] Further encoding thoughts X-Sender-Ip: 206.50.182.6 Organization: My Deja Email (http://www.my-deja.com:80) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org Technically, in order to modify the user login as a whole, it should be. Ugly, perhaps not the best way, but none the less.. --- Thomas Charron On Fri, 30 Jul 1999 09:46:05 Lindsay.Marshall wrote: >On 29 Jul, Dave Smith wrote: >> One more thought... >> >> What if we did something along these lines for encoding... >> >> >> >> >> >> APASSWORD >> > >This is just too verbose. > > > > APASSWORD > > >is much cleaner and simpler (and avoids all the ordering problems. > >L. >-- >http://catless.ncl.ac.uk/Lindsay > > --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- Share what you know. Learn what you don't. From owner-jdev@jabber.org Fri Jul 30 08:03:06 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA00627 for jdev-list; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 08:03:06 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from mc-qout4.whowhere.com (mc-qout4.whowhere.com [209.185.123.18]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA00624 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 08:03:03 -0500 Received: from Unknown/Local ([?.?.?.?]) by my-deja.com; Fri Jul 30 05:02:28 1999 To: jdev@jabber.org Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 05:02:28 -0700 From: "Thomas D. Charron" Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sent-Mail: off X-Mailer: MailCity Service Subject: Re: [JDEV] date, encoding X-Sender-Ip: 206.50.182.6 Organization: My Deja Email (http://www.my-deja.com:80) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org I would have to agree.. encoding data has always been an attribute to a tag, not a tag in and on itself.. That is why different peices of data using different charsets can be contained within the same document.. --- Thomas Charron On Fri, 30 Jul 1999 09:44:06 Lindsay.Marshall wrote: > >> Dave beat me to the punch on the encoding. pass encoding (I still think it'd >> work better as a tag rather than an attribute?). And then leave it up to the >> client as to whether or not it cares about/can handle it. As long it gets >> passed along in an 8-bit format, right? > >No, no, no, it is an attribute *not* a tag! You can have an encpoding >attribute on any tag that has CDATA. Other wise you then having to >allow embedding of the tag inside anythign with CDATA. An >attribute is much simpler. > >L. >-- >http://catless.ncl.ac.uk/Lindsay > > --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- Share what you know. Learn what you don't. From owner-jdev@jabber.org Fri Jul 30 08:14:06 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA00783 for jdev-list; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 08:14:06 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from mc-qout4.whowhere.com (mc-qout4.whowhere.com [209.185.123.18]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA00780 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 08:14:04 -0500 Received: from Unknown/Local ([?.?.?.?]) by my-deja.com; Fri Jul 30 05:13:28 1999 To: jdev@jabber.org Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 05:13:28 -0700 From: "Thomas D. Charron" Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sent-Mail: off X-Mailer: MailCity Service Subject: Re: [JDEV] charsets (was: Protocol extension?) X-Sender-Ip: 206.50.182.6 Organization: My Deja Email (http://www.my-deja.com:80) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org Err, I think I missed a point or two here.. Language = profile, but charset = protocol/client/etc. Let's not get confused here.. Once you can support the charset, the 'puters could care less what language your speaking.. And as far as a jabber registry, there has already been a discusion several months ago regarding it, if you want to look at prior ideas.. IMHO, it should wait for a bit, though.. --- Thomas Charron On Thu, 29 Jul 1999 16:43:58 patrick wrote: > >> Come to think of it, this would help bots and the like too, in that >> they could talk to people in their native language. It would >> definitively be nice if the roster info included preferred language >> and probably charset as well. >> > This is probably more of a profile issue. The Jabber protocol >doesn't really get into this area - because you could also specify your >age, because that could be relevant, or anything, really. What isn't >neccessary for clients to understand a message shouldn't be in the >protocol, but rather in a user profile stored with a separate mechanism, >such as LDAP, which is very good for this sort of thing. > > There'll be a need for a jabber registry, or more than one, >anyway. > > >Patrick > >> >> Anders "Quest" Qvist >> NetGuide Scandinavia >> >> -- Why suffer scarcity? Look for the Open Source and enter a world of plenty! >> >> > > --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- Share what you know. Learn what you don't. From owner-jdev@jabber.org Fri Jul 30 08:18:57 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA00868 for jdev-list; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 08:18:57 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from mc-qout4.whowhere.com (mc-qout4.whowhere.com [209.185.123.18]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA00864 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 08:18:54 -0500 Received: from Unknown/Local ([?.?.?.?]) by my-deja.com; Fri Jul 30 05:18:36 1999 To: jdev@jabber.org Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 05:18:36 -0700 From: "Thomas D. Charron" Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sent-Mail: off X-Mailer: MailCity Service Subject: Re: Jabber registry (was: [JDEV] charsets (was: Protocol extension?)) X-Sender-Ip: 206.50.182.6 Organization: My Deja Email (http://www.my-deja.com:80) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org Again, yes.. But it would need to be an optional type of thing, due to the decentralized nature of jabber. We where looking at one of these: A) Master Registry that trolled for users B) Master Registry that servers could optionally 'PUSH' user data up to. This would be nice in that you could have several different master servers that users could list themselves on.. 'The Sewing' master server, etc.. Kind of like phone books that you can publish your data in for free.. C) Oh, I can't remember, I will try to dig thru the archives and dig up the messages.. --- Thomas Charron On Thu, 29 Jul 1999 23:19:40 Anders Qvist wrote: >On Thu, 29 Jul 1999, patrick wrote: > >> > Come to think of it, this would help bots and the like too, in that >> > they could talk to people in their native language. It would >> > definitively be nice if the roster info included preferred language >> > and probably charset as well. >> > >> This is probably more of a profile issue. The Jabber protocol >> doesn't really get into this area - because you could also specify your >> age, because that could be relevant, or anything, really. What isn't >> neccessary for clients to understand a message shouldn't be in the >> protocol, but rather in a user profile stored with a separate mechanism, >> such as LDAP, which is very good for this sort of thing. >> >> There'll be a need for a jabber registry, or more than one, >> anyway. > >Sure thing. I don't care how it is stored, so long as the information >is easily available to jabber clients so they can look it up when >sending messages. I saw the roster as being the single store for all >relevant info on users. Being a newvomer I may have overlooked this >part. Are there any docs on a profile store/registry? Any substantial >thoughts in the matter? > >Anders "Quest" Qvist >NetGuide Scandinavia > >-- Why suffer scarcity? Look for the Open Source and enter a world of plenty! > > --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- Share what you know. Learn what you don't. From owner-jdev@jabber.org Fri Jul 30 08:22:34 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA00959 for jdev-list; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 08:22:34 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from mc-qout4.whowhere.com (mc-qout4.whowhere.com [209.185.123.18]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA00955 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 08:22:31 -0500 Received: from Unknown/Local ([?.?.?.?]) by my-deja.com; Fri Jul 30 05:21:48 1999 To: jdev@jabber.org Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 05:21:48 -0700 From: "Thomas D. Charron" Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sent-Mail: off X-Mailer: MailCity Service Subject: RE: [JDEV] Re: Jabber registry X-Sender-Ip: 206.50.182.6 Organization: My Deja Email (http://www.my-deja.com:80) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org The wonder of jabber is, it doesn't matter what anyone thinks.. It can quite literally support anything anyone wants.. One LDAP idea I was thinking of that would be VERY nice would be distributed servers. You could very easily be part of jabber.org, but have nh.us.jabber.org and wa.us.jabber.org be connecting to the same LDAP user data.. --- Thomas Charron On Thu, 29 Jul 1999 17:57:37 Patrick McCuller wrote: > > The proposal is fine as it is, but this is exactly what LDAP is *for*. You >don't need to invent or write anything, including a data store, LDAP >interfaces are well known, documented, and stable, and existing LDAP servers >could be tapped for user profile information. LDAP servers can be backed up, >replicated, and so on, all independantly of jabber. Additionally, LDAP >authentication will be integrated into Jabber servers (a mod_ldap, >undoubtably) eventually, probably sooner rather than later. > > With LDAP as the registry, users could search or update the registry using >standard tools, or a web interface. LDAP client libraries are relatively >easy to integrate with both clients and servers. > > There is also a good free LDAP server at http://www.openldap.org/ which I >can vouch for. The web hosting company I work for uses it exclusively, and I >do all of their LDAP-related development. > > Not to try to convince you or anything. :) > > >Patrick > > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-jdev@jabber.org [mailto:owner-jdev@jabber.org]On Behalf Of >> Jeremie >> Sent: Thursday, July 29, 1999 6:26 PM >> To: jdev@jabber.org >> Subject: [JDEV] Re: Jabber registry >> >> >> > Sure thing. I don't care how it is stored, so long as the information >> > is easily available to jabber clients so they can look it up when >> > sending messages. I saw the roster as being the single store for all >> > relevant info on users. Being a newvomer I may have overlooked this >> > part. Are there any docs on a profile store/registry? Any substantial >> > thoughts in the matter? >> >> Yes, I wrote up a quick proposal some time ago at: >> http://www.jabber.org/developers/archive/9904/msg00022.html >> >> It's partially implemented already, and I plan on having it ready to test >> by 0.7. There have been a few changes/updates and there needs to be a >> good deal more documenting/explaining on it, which is all on it's way >> after I get caught up on other things. >> >> Jer >> >> > > --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- Share what you know. Learn what you don't. From owner-jdev@jabber.org Fri Jul 30 08:26:24 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA01048 for jdev-list; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 08:26:24 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from mc-qout4.whowhere.com (mc-qout4.whowhere.com [209.185.123.18]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA01045 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 08:26:21 -0500 Received: from Unknown/Local ([?.?.?.?]) by my-deja.com; Fri Jul 30 05:25:44 1999 To: jdev@jabber.org Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 05:25:44 -0700 From: "Thomas D. Charron" Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sent-Mail: off X-Mailer: MailCity Service Subject: Re: [JDEV] Character Encodings and Languages thread X-Sender-Ip: 206.50.182.6 Organization: My Deja Email (http://www.my-deja.com:80) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org DARNED good question about AIM.. Does TOC support multiple charset's? As for your idea on each tag being a seperate document, it's an idea worth considering, but IMHO not very nice.. Perhaps a better idea would be to modify expat to look for the encoding attributes and modify it's behavior accordingly.. --- Thomas Charron On Thu, 29 Jul 1999 17:06:05 Dave Smith wrote: >Jer, you noted that it's not possible to change encodings on the fly. :) I >would like to respectfully point out that it would be perfectly possible >(and could even simplify the Jabber parse routines) if we modified the >Jabber protocol to be one-document-to-one-packet instead of using a >one-document-to-many-packets approach. This way, expat switches between >encodings on the fly. > >Just an idea... :) > >Even if we do this, implementing the client is gonna be tricky since it's >going to have to be able to parse a funkily (is that a word?!) encoded >document.... > >Just out of curiosity, how does AIM handle this? Or ICQ for that matter? > >D. > > --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- Share what you know. Learn what you don't. From owner-jdev@jabber.org Fri Jul 30 08:50:13 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA01421 for jdev-list; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 08:50:13 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from mc-qout4.whowhere.com (mc-qout4.whowhere.com [209.185.123.18]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA01418 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 08:50:11 -0500 Received: from Unknown/Local ([?.?.?.?]) by my-deja.com; Fri Jul 30 05:49:37 1999 To: jdev@jabber.org Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 05:49:37 -0700 From: "Thomas D. Charron" Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sent-Mail: off X-Mailer: MailCity Service Subject: Re: [JDEV] Re: Jabber registry X-Sender-Ip: 206.50.182.6 Organization: My Deja Email (http://www.my-deja.com:80) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org Ahh, good, I don't have to troll for it.. ;-P --- Thomas Charron On Thu, 29 Jul 1999 17:25:46 Jeremie wrote: >> Sure thing. I don't care how it is stored, so long as the information >> is easily available to jabber clients so they can look it up when >> sending messages. I saw the roster as being the single store for all >> relevant info on users. Being a newvomer I may have overlooked this >> part. Are there any docs on a profile store/registry? Any substantial >> thoughts in the matter? > >Yes, I wrote up a quick proposal some time ago at: >http://www.jabber.org/developers/archive/9904/msg00022.html > >It's partially implemented already, and I plan on having it ready to test >by 0.7. There have been a few changes/updates and there needs to be a >good deal more documenting/explaining on it, which is all on it's way >after I get caught up on other things. > >Jer > > --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- Share what you know. Learn what you don't. From owner-jdev@jabber.org Fri Jul 30 08:53:02 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA01492 for jdev-list; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 08:53:02 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from mc-qout4.whowhere.com (mc-qout4.whowhere.com [209.185.123.18]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA01487 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 08:52:59 -0500 Received: from Unknown/Local ([?.?.?.?]) by my-deja.com; Fri Jul 30 05:52:23 1999 To: jdev@jabber.org Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 05:52:23 -0700 From: "Thomas D. Charron" Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sent-Mail: off X-Mailer: MailCity Service Subject: Re: [JDEV] Encodings & Simplicity X-Sender-Ip: 206.50.182.6 Organization: My Deja Email (http://www.my-deja.com:80) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org See my last package.. We're saved.. There are packages out there to convert between charsets.. ;-P --- Thomas Charron On Thu, 29 Jul 1999 19:01:18 Dave Smith wrote: > >I've been thinking about this whole problem of encodings and would like to >thrown one more log on the fire... :) > >We are assuming that in international circumstances, individuals will want to >create Jabber packets that contain non-ASCII data. Okay, that's good and fine. >But why force the Jabber packets that *enclose* the data to conform to the same >standard? That is, why does a Jabber packet *have* to be encoded in anything >besides UTF-8?! Jabber, by nature, doesn't care what **data** a packet carries, >so long as the transport/etherex/etc can parse the actual packet. Am I making >any sense? :) > >It would be *very* difficult to ensure that every client and every transport >could understand 7 possible packet encodings. Why not just specify that all >protocol-related information be in UTF-8 (which is what most programming >languages use -- I don't know of a Chinese/Korean/Thai character based >programming language) ? Furthermore, specify that individual tags within a >packet could have an attribute telling the client what format the CDATA (for a >particular tag) is in. This way, it's up to the client to decode funky chars and >the server/transport side of things only worries about the encoding... > >These are just a few thoughts I had..probably doesn't solve everything, but I >think it simplfies the issue...doesn't it? :) > >D. > --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- Share what you know. Learn what you don't. From owner-jdev@jabber.org Fri Jul 30 08:54:57 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA01535 for jdev-list; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 08:54:57 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from mc-qout4.whowhere.com (mc-qout4.whowhere.com [209.185.123.18]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA01532 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 08:54:54 -0500 Received: from Unknown/Local ([?.?.?.?]) by my-deja.com; Fri Jul 30 05:54:16 1999 To: jdev@jabber.org Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 05:54:16 -0700 From: "Thomas D. Charron" Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sent-Mail: off X-Mailer: MailCity Service Subject: Re: [JDEV] char set selesction X-Sender-Ip: 206.50.182.6 Organization: My Deja Email (http://www.my-deja.com:80) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org I just noticed that.. ;-P Wow, would THAT ever make it to BugTraq.. ;-P --- Thomas Charron On Thu, 29 Jul 1999 21:30:57 Jon A. Cruz wrote: >"Thomas D. Charron" wrote: > >> On Thu, 29 Jul 1999 11:45:34 Jerrad Pierce wrote: >> >why not a have a seperate command/tag which can be issued anywhere? >> >say at the beginning of a conversation. >> >and then if you switch within a message or any other tag, issue another >> >? >> >> One of the things I was talking about earlier.. This part can already be done within the XML tag: >> >> >> >> Expat will deal with the charset type, I'm just not quite sure HOW.. > >One of the ways is to throw a fatal error. Not something I'd like to see. > > >-- >"My new computer's got the clocks, it rocks >But it was obsolete before I opened the box" - W.A.Y. > > > > --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- Share what you know. Learn what you don't. From owner-jdev@jabber.org Fri Jul 30 09:02:00 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA01663 for jdev-list; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 09:02:00 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from mc-qout4.whowhere.com (mc-qout4.whowhere.com [209.185.123.18]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA01660 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 09:01:58 -0500 Received: from Unknown/Local ([?.?.?.?]) by my-deja.com; Fri Jul 30 06:01:23 1999 To: jdev@jabber.org Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 06:01:23 -0700 From: "Thomas D. Charron" Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sent-Mail: off X-Mailer: MailCity Service Subject: Re: [JDEV] charsets (was: Protocol extension?) X-Sender-Ip: 206.50.182.6 Organization: My Deja Email (http://www.my-deja.com:80) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org On Thu, 29 Jul 1999 21:51:19 Jon A. Cruz wrote: >"Lindsay F. Marshall" wrote: >Please, please, please, please, please, please don't get into multiple >encodings. I'm not sure we're getting you.. Are you trying to say you don't want us to support multiple encodings? >Please. That last one just to get the point accross? >:-} >First of all, From the XML spec http://www.w3.org/TR/1998/REC-xml-19980210 >section 2.2 states: >"All XML processors must accept the UTF-8 and UTF-16 encodings of 10646;" Ahh, a darned good point I nearly forgot about.. >Thus, since we are basing things on XML, we can declare that if a client >can't handle UTF-8, then it has a broken XML implementation. (if not, I >can write them code. It's not too hard :-) Yet another point.. We're based on XML, and Jer actually rewrote the servers to make them more standardized on XML, so if the XML standard says it, then I think we can rely on having UTF-8 support --- Thomas Charron --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- Share what you know. Learn what you don't. From owner-jdev@jabber.org Fri Jul 30 09:07:44 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA01761 for jdev-list; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 09:07:44 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from mc-qout4.whowhere.com (mc-qout4.whowhere.com [209.185.123.18]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA01758 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 09:07:41 -0500 Received: from Unknown/Local ([?.?.?.?]) by my-deja.com; Fri Jul 30 06:07:06 1999 To: jdev@jabber.org Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 06:07:06 -0700 From: "Thomas D. Charron" Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sent-Mail: off X-Mailer: MailCity Service Subject: Re: [JDEV] existing protocol questions X-Sender-Ip: 206.50.182.6 Organization: My Deja Email (http://www.my-deja.com:80) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org > Why are errors reported in a instead of an ? It >would seem more logical to me, again, I'm missing something, yes? > It should be reported as a . All 'conversations' are contained within messages, with different message 'types' designating what they are.. This way, a client can catch message attributes and do different things with them, but for unsupported attributes, they get passed to the user as a standard message, which is also why they are in plaintext.. >4. > How does the message extension work? What is its intended usage? You mean the ? Can be used for anything one deems fit. I could actually send you a raw text file, contained within the ext tags.. The server/transports won't touch it, and will just pass it along. It's a way to piggyback any data someone may want to pass along with a jabber packet without having to make ANYTHING aware of it.. Heck, eventually someone will probrably make a checkers game by passing move data between clients via the ext tag.. --- Thomas Charron > > >Patrick > > --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- Share what you know. Learn what you don't. From owner-jdev@jabber.org Fri Jul 30 09:45:57 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA02144 for jdev-list; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 09:45:57 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from katie.tranzoa.com (root@sea-ts3-p25.wolfenet.com [205.163.74.25]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA02141 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 09:45:53 -0500 Received: from tara.tranzoa.com (IDENT:postfix@tara.tranzoa.com [10.1.1.66]) by katie.tranzoa.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA12883 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 06:45:48 -0700 Received: by tara.tranzoa.com (Postfix, from userid 0) id B3354E682B; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 06:45:47 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 06:45:47 -0700 From: Scott Robinson To: jdev@jabber.org Subject: Re: [JDEV] Encoding and dating thoughts Message-ID: <19990730064547.A1014@tara.tranzoa.com> References: <19990729224839.A2338@tara.tranzoa.com> <000901beda54$fbc74080$0a7bc897@scylla> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary=d6Gm4EdcadzBjdND; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.6i In-Reply-To: <000901beda54$fbc74080$0a7bc897@scylla>; from Patrick McCuller on Fri, Jul 30, 1999 at 02:30:14AM -0400 X-Disclaimer: The contents of this e-mail, unless otherwise stated, are the property of David Ryland Scott Robinson. Copyright (C)1999, All Rights Reservered. X-Operating-System: Linux tara.tranzoa.com 2.2.5-15 Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org --d6Gm4EdcadzBjdND Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ok, I'll give you that point. However, it does handily solve the problem of time representation, ne? Scott. * Patrick McCuller translated into ASCII [Fri, Jul 30, 1999 at 02:30:14AM -= 0400][<000901beda54$fbc74080$0a7bc897@scylla>] >=20 > > > > I would also like to make a suggestion on the date format. In the next > > couple of years all UNIX systems will be forced to move to 64 bit > > (or above) > > integers. Why? 2038 =3D=3D $maxint. The simple solution would be to jus= t blit > > the int and RFC ???? timezone. ex. "12341234 PST" >=20 > Don't count on it happening soon. By this logic, we would have been > worrying about the Y2K problem in 1962. We only really started worrying > about it, arguably, less than two years ago. That's a generalization, of > course, but closer to the truth than 1962. >=20 >=20 > Patrick >=20 --d6Gm4EdcadzBjdND Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v0.9.8 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iEYEARECAAYFAjehrIoACgkQ1MPeBfASdFBL3wCggYa0hJXfMx2ENMNiD4RWL295 jncAn0JE9INtGbLAXqzsvd6Esbr7Xyuq =dLvJ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --d6Gm4EdcadzBjdND-- From owner-jdev@jabber.org Fri Jul 30 09:46:19 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA02156 for jdev-list; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 09:46:19 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from katie.tranzoa.com (root@sea-ts3-p25.wolfenet.com [205.163.74.25]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA02153 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 09:46:16 -0500 Received: from tara.tranzoa.com (IDENT:postfix@tara.tranzoa.com [10.1.1.66]) by katie.tranzoa.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA12888 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 06:46:12 -0700 Received: by tara.tranzoa.com (Postfix, from userid 0) id 73A60E682B; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 06:46:12 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 06:46:12 -0700 From: Scott Robinson To: jdev@jabber.org Subject: Re: [JDEV] Further encoding thoughts Message-ID: <19990730064612.B1014@tara.tranzoa.com> References: <99072921544800.02781@hawthorne.na.com> <199907300843.JAA20732@burnmoor.ncl.ac.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary=TakKZr9L6Hm6aLOc; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.6i In-Reply-To: <199907300843.JAA20732@burnmoor.ncl.ac.uk>; from Lindsay.Marshall@newcastle.ac.uk on Fri, Jul 30, 1999 at 09:46:05AM +0100 X-Disclaimer: The contents of this e-mail, unless otherwise stated, are the property of David Ryland Scott Robinson. Copyright (C)1999, All Rights Reservered. X-Operating-System: Linux tara.tranzoa.com 2.2.5-15 Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org --TakKZr9L6Hm6aLOc Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ahmen. Scott. * Lindsay.Marshall@newcastle.ac.uk translated into ASCII [Fri, Jul 30, 1999= at 09:46:05AM +0100][<199907300843.JAA20732@burnmoor.ncl.ac.uk>] > On 29 Jul, Dave Smith wrote: > > One more thought... > >=20 > > What if we did something along these lines for encoding... > >=20 > > > > > > > > > > APASSWORD > > >=20 > This is just too verbose.=20 >=20 > > > APASSWORD > >=20 > is much cleaner and simpler (and avoids all the ordering problems.=20 >=20 > L. > --=20 > http://catless.ncl.ac.uk/Lindsay >=20 --TakKZr9L6Hm6aLOc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v0.9.8 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iEYEARECAAYFAjehrKMACgkQ1MPeBfASdFDLtgCfTPrVM3yND2EeT5yASE/hwQR0 d24An2rIFZUNhp5xUkDSuOnXjbR6+RZP =YuF7 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --TakKZr9L6Hm6aLOc-- From owner-jdev@jabber.org Fri Jul 30 09:47:59 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA02225 for jdev-list; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 09:47:59 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from mc-qout4.whowhere.com (mc-qout4.whowhere.com [209.185.123.18]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA02215 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 09:47:56 -0500 Received: from Unknown/Local ([?.?.?.?]) by my-deja.com; Fri Jul 30 06:47:20 1999 To: "Jabber Development" Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 06:47:20 -0700 From: "Thomas D. Charron" Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Cc: "Jabber Team" X-Sent-Mail: off X-Mailer: MailCity Service Subject: [JDEV] Writings from the Journal of TCharron X-Sender-Ip: 206.50.182.6 Organization: My Deja Email (http://www.my-deja.com:80) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org ** WARNING: opinions are below, take them with a grain of salt. ** -- Congrads! -- Congrads!! This message will kick the July messages logs to the largest size since January, and, well, January doesn;t could becouse Jer flooded us with about 150k of docs to the list then.. ;-P -- My Outlook on current status of the project.. -- Things are begining to pick up after everyone took a mental break. I can't speak for the rest of the team, but I can say that moving forward I think we are on the brink of having a full fledged slashdot story ready 1.0. This is mainly do to the outgoing attitude of some of the newer members. PLEASE keep up the good work. -- The Win32 project -- Jer, I'm going to ask you this now to make it simple.. ;-P Now that we have some more windows developers, I would like to request there be a different CVS project for the Win32 client. I want to disect the relience on the jabber lib directory, and all I'm currently reqally using anyway is xpt.c and jpair.c. Once we have the team environment in place, I want to let everyone that signs up as part of the Win32 team crank out on this client.. Our primary user base, dislike it as many may, is, at least for non technical users, going to be based on the quality of the Windows Client. To everyone who has inquired an offered Win32 skills, please bear with us.. We really can't start going development crazy until Jer is done moving over to the new server, otherwise our code bases will be hell to try to merge together. -- The Win32 Team -- As it stands now, I will be stepping up as the Win32 development coordinator. To be totally honest, I don't want to hold that title alone. Eventually, as development continues, as if the rest of the team has no objections, I would like to see at least a second coordinator.. My reasoning behind the above is simple.. EVERYONE on occasion has to drop of the face of the net for variouse reasons, be it work, mental health time, death, etc.. Having only one primary leader in the group is not a very smart idea.. I recently needed to do the above for a month and a half, and is one of the primary reasons why there was NO complete Win32 client for the 0.6 release.. -- The CharSet debate -- I believe it was Lindsay Marshall who pointed out the following: >First of all, From the XML spec http://www.w3.org/TR/1998/REC-xml-19980210 >section 2.2 states: >"All XML processors must accept the UTF-8 and UTF-16 encodings of 10646;" My opinion.. CASE CLOSED.. We're based on UTF-8/UTF-16 IMHO.. I'd forgotten that particular section of the w3 standard. There ARE packages available that could convert, as I pointed out, but I say we point them at the client developers. w3 says it's XML standard, let's no screw with it.. Perhaps we could have some transports that deviate from the rule, as that's the wonders of jabber, but the standard jabbertransport and etherx need to maintain XML compatibility, 'spec if we develope the JNX standard (More on that latter).. Now, I don't understand why they actually ALSO standadize passing encoding data with the initial XML tag, but I suppose it's for future expansion or accomidating non standard clients.. I know there's more that I'm forgetting.. --- Thomas Charron --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- Share what you know. Learn what you don't. From owner-jdev@jabber.org Fri Jul 30 10:08:33 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA02611 for jdev-list; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 10:08:33 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from cheviot.ncl.ac.uk (cheviot.ncl.ac.uk [128.240.233.51]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA02608 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 10:08:30 -0500 From: Lindsay.Marshall@newcastle.ac.uk Received: from burnmoor.ncl.ac.uk by cheviot.ncl.ac.uk id (8.7.6/ for ncl.ac.uk) with ESMTP; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 15:08:28 +0100 (BST) Received: from catless.ncl.ac.uk (simonside.ncl.ac.uk [128.240.150.55]) by burnmoor.ncl.ac.uk (8.7.6/8.6.10-cf revision 2 for Solaris 2.x) with ESMTP id PAA04181; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 15:08:25 +0100 (BST) Message-Id: <199907301408.PAA04181@burnmoor.ncl.ac.uk> Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 15:11:22 +0100 (GMT) Subject: Re: [JDEV] existing protocol questions To: jdev@jabber.org In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org >>4. >> How does the message extension work? What is its intended usage? > > You mean the ? Can be used for anything one deems fit. I could actually send > you a raw text file, contained within the ext tags.. The server/transports won't touch it, and > will just pass it along. It's a way to piggyback any data someone may want to pass along with a > jabber packet without having to make ANYTHING aware of it.. Heck, eventually someone will probrably > make a checkers game by passing move data between clients via the ext tag.. Um, surely the server transports wont touch *any* CDATA anywhere! At least I hope they won't! Except of course where they have to handle escaped character sequences which always get in the way. So why is ext different from (say) ??? L. -- http://catless.ncl.ac.uk/Lindsay From owner-jdev@jabber.org Fri Jul 30 10:12:43 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA02676 for jdev-list; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 10:12:43 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from katie.tranzoa.com (root@sea-ts3-p25.wolfenet.com [205.163.74.25]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA02673 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 10:12:39 -0500 Received: from tara.tranzoa.com (IDENT:postfix@tara.tranzoa.com [10.1.1.66]) by katie.tranzoa.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA13004 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 07:12:35 -0700 Received: by tara.tranzoa.com (Postfix, from userid 0) id D2FB4E682B; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 07:12:34 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 07:12:34 -0700 From: Scott Robinson To: jdev@jabber.org Subject: Re: [JDEV] Writings from the Journal of TCharron Message-ID: <19990730071234.A1107@tara.tranzoa.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary=1yeeQ81UyVL57Vl7; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.6i In-Reply-To: ; from Thomas D. Charron on Fri, Jul 30, 1999 at 06:47:20AM -0700 X-Disclaimer: The contents of this e-mail, unless otherwise stated, are the property of David Ryland Scott Robinson. Copyright (C)1999, All Rights Reservered. X-Operating-System: Linux tara.tranzoa.com 2.2.5-15 Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org --1yeeQ81UyVL57Vl7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Interleaved response. Scott. * Thomas D. Charron translated into ASCII [Fri, Jul 30, 1999 at 06:47:20AM = -0700][] > ** WARNING: opinions are below, take them with a grain of salt. ** >=20 > -- Congrads! -- >=20 > Congrads!! This message will kick the July messages logs to the larges= t size since January, and, well, January doesn;t could becouse Jer flooded = us with about 150k of docs to the list then.. ;-P >=20 Wow. > -- My Outlook on current status of the project.. -- >=20 > Things are begining to pick up after everyone took a mental break. I c= an't speak for the rest of the team, but I can say that moving forward I th= ink we are on the brink of having a full fledged slashdot story ready 1.0. = This is mainly do to the outgoing attitude of some of the newer members. = PLEASE keep up the good work. >=20 I'm betting slashdot affect. ;) There was an "Ask Slashdot" about Jabber a bit ago. [snap] > -- The CharSet debate -- >=20 > I believe it was Lindsay Marshall who pointed out the following: >=20 > >First of all, From the XML spec http://www.w3.org/TR/1998/REC-xml-199802= 10 > >section 2.2 states: > >"All XML processors must accept the UTF-8 and UTF-16 encodings of 10646;" >=20 I would focus on the "must accept." I'm fine with accepting UTF-8 and UTF-16, however (and this is the reason they included a standard for passing encoding) we should also be able to handle internationalization. As the example was given, what would the Korean Jabber user think? Answer: they wouldn't use Jabber... [snap] > I know there's more that I'm forgetting.. Everyone does! ;) > --- > Thomas Charron >=20 >=20 > --=3D=3D Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ =3D=3D-- > Share what you know. Learn what you don't. --1yeeQ81UyVL57Vl7 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v0.9.8 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iEYEARECAAYFAjehstIACgkQ1MPeBfASdFDXygCghkeNqYYunBcsP0oJd3cJchg/ 4X8An0Lna0mOtrIZTZpzKefrVXgALqnd =KYrO -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --1yeeQ81UyVL57Vl7-- From owner-jdev@jabber.org Fri Jul 30 10:38:38 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA02944 for jdev-list; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 10:38:38 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from localhost (jeremie@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA02941 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 10:38:36 -0500 Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 10:38:35 -0500 (CDT) From: Jeremie X-Sender: jeremie@mondo.eppg.com To: jdev@jabber.org Subject: RE: [JDEV] Re: Jabber registry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org > Alright, that's a good argument. I now agree that the XML path is > important. I do have a question, though, regarding 'permanent' profile > information. This is stored per Jabber server, correct? So if I am a > jabber user with an address of patrick@jabber.kia.net, then the jabber > server at jabber.kia.net stores my profile (somewhere, maybe ldap, maybe > not), correct? Correct. > I think that will make it very nearly impossible to have a central > registry of any relevance. For instance, I would not be able to find my > long lost brother 'joshua's jabber profile without querying every jabber > server in the world. And if I'm not querying them directly, then > jabber.kia.net is. Right? There's been no plan for a central registry being part of Jabber. The structure is very similiar to email, so any registries are opt-in similiar to bigfoot/etc. BUT, since this is a feature that will be popular, I'd like to build into the most common server modules the functionality of being able to provide a list of the available registries and easily opt-in certian searchable characteristics as the user specifies. Most likely something you'll see after 0.7. Jer From owner-jdev@jabber.org Fri Jul 30 10:44:21 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA03009 for jdev-list; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 10:44:21 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from viper500.greatgames.com (root@viper.cove.com [209.113.166.31]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA03006 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 10:44:19 -0500 Received: from willow (ppp001.cove.com [209.113.166.32]) by viper500.greatgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA24499 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 10:42:51 -0400 From: "Stephen Wills" To: Subject: [JDEV] known platforms running the server. Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 10:49:07 -0400 Message-ID: <000b01beda9a$ae184f00$11a671d1@willow> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org Quick piece of feed back. I downloaded the Jabber server 0.6 and compiled on a DEC PC64 (21164) running RedHat 5.0. It ran great! If the doc group is trying to maintain a list of tested platforms... you can add this one :) very cool. > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-jdev@jabber.org [mailto:owner-jdev@jabber.org]On Behalf Of > Jeremie > Sent: Thursday, July 29, 1999 7:21 PM > To: jdev@jabber.org > Subject: Re: [JDEV] Busy server? > > > > Is anyone running a jabber server that is fully set up that I can hook > > into to see how it all looks when active? > > I should have one up and running on the new server sometime next week, I > need to build a little bridge to the database of Jabber Developers so that > everyone automatically has an account first. > > Jer > From owner-jdev@jabber.org Fri Jul 30 10:56:50 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA03115 for jdev-list; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 10:56:50 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from cheviot.ncl.ac.uk (cheviot.ncl.ac.uk [128.240.233.51]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA03111 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 10:56:46 -0500 From: Lindsay.Marshall@newcastle.ac.uk Received: from burnmoor.ncl.ac.uk by cheviot.ncl.ac.uk id (8.7.6/ for ncl.ac.uk) with ESMTP; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 15:56:44 +0100 (BST) Received: from catless.ncl.ac.uk (simonside.ncl.ac.uk [128.240.150.55]) by burnmoor.ncl.ac.uk (8.7.6/8.6.10-cf revision 2 for Solaris 2.x) with ESMTP id PAA10805; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 15:56:40 +0100 (BST) Message-Id: <199907301456.PAA10805@burnmoor.ncl.ac.uk> Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 15:59:38 +0100 (GMT) Subject: [JDEV] Hmm, a late thought To: jdev@jabber.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org Why is nickname an attribute of the from? Surely nickname should be a fully fledged tag (then of course encodings will work :-). foo@bar.co.jp B$$at$ (I just made up that string so it probably isn't JIS at all.) L. -- http://catless.ncl.ac.uk/Lindsay From owner-jdev@jabber.org Fri Jul 30 10:58:00 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA03141 for jdev-list; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 10:58:00 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from localhost (jeremie@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA03137 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 10:57:58 -0500 Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 10:57:58 -0500 (CDT) From: Jeremie X-Sender: jeremie@mondo.eppg.com To: "Jdev@Jabber. Org" Subject: Re: [JDEV] existing protocol questions In-Reply-To: <000601beda5e$82715900$bc76c897@scylla> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org > 1. > From the client: how do I query a list of my roster groups? > Although I can get a response detailing specific groups with a query like > this: > > > > > > I find I have to specify the groups I want to fetch. How do I find > out what groups I have set? An empty get should return the list of groups there are... > 2. > Why are errors reported in a instead of an ? It > would seem more logical to me, again, I'm missing something, yes? Mostly so that clients that dont support specific type='' messages still present the error to the client as a normal message. It's just a way to lower the client requirements. Also, anything you could express in can already be done in a normal message, so why not just use a normal message and avoid extending the protocol to duplicate existing functionality? > 3. > What is the significance of the status type? type="online">. Is it freeform or is there a set of acceptable types? There is only online/offline. The and fields are free-form. The type="" is a special field used in the server and between servers. > 4. > How does the message extension work? What is its intended usage? Basically, it's so that two clients can communicate programatically easily. The server doesn't touch the data in the fields, and the user shouldn't see it directly(unless the client *wants* them to). As Tom mentioned, it's a way clients could add background information such as game data, etc... it's there for "future use" and extensability. Feel free to ask away if you have any more questions! I know the docs at jabber.org are a bit sparse, but as soon as I get things moved this weekend I'll be updating and adding lots more! Jer From owner-jdev@jabber.org Fri Jul 30 11:18:39 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA03517 for jdev-list; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 11:18:39 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from localhost (jeremie@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA03514 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 11:18:37 -0500 Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 11:18:36 -0500 (CDT) From: Jeremie X-Sender: jeremie@mondo.eppg.com To: jdev@jabber.org Subject: Re: [JDEV] Character Encodings and Languages thread In-Reply-To: <199907300836.JAA19851@burnmoor.ncl.ac.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org > Sorry, but this is nonsense. We are *only* talking about CDATA here, > that is 8 bit bytes. The XML parser simply pulls these out without > interpretation (apart from escaped characters) and gives them to you. > (Well, at least that's what my XML parser does!). I am free to > interpret those bytes in anyway I chose. The encoding is only relevant > to the rendering software, it has nothing to do with the parser at > all. Implementing it is essentially trivial. Take a look at http://www.w3.org/TR/1998/REC-xml-19980210#sec-guessing It sure doesn't sound or look trivial, and I couldn't expect any XML parser to attempt to do that at the start of every which would be disasterous). As others have mentioned, mixing character encodings is a path that hasn't fared well in other places and likely a bad idea here. > This doesn't help at all. What I want to be able to do is to > communicate with my friends in Korea in korean, my friends in japan in > Japanese and use English here. I want to do this over a single message > stream. Not everyone will have UTF-8 support on their machines. Well, if they don't have UTF-8 they don't have XML since it's required of all XML parsers to understand. What I'm really wondering here is, this is just character encodings, correct? I mean, all the same characters are still there in ANY encoding(unless it's a severly restricted one), they are just encoded differently. If it's all UTF-8 you can still do all of the korean, japanese, english, etc, characters just fine, they are just encoded in UTF-8. It's just a language and font display issue at that point. So what is the problem with using the XML-forced UTF-8 encoding? Jer From owner-jdev@jabber.org Fri Jul 30 11:21:11 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA03548 for jdev-list; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 11:21:11 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from cheviot.ncl.ac.uk (cheviot.ncl.ac.uk [128.240.233.51]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA03542 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 11:20:55 -0500 From: Lindsay.Marshall@newcastle.ac.uk Received: from burnmoor.ncl.ac.uk by cheviot.ncl.ac.uk id (8.7.6/ for ncl.ac.uk) with ESMTP; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 15:51:22 +0100 (BST) Received: from catless.ncl.ac.uk (simonside.ncl.ac.uk [128.240.150.55]) by burnmoor.ncl.ac.uk (8.7.6/8.6.10-cf revision 2 for Solaris 2.x) with ESMTP id PAA10135; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 15:51:17 +0100 (BST) Message-Id: <199907301451.PAA10135@burnmoor.ncl.ac.uk> Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 15:54:15 +0100 (GMT) Subject: Re: [JDEV] Writings from the Journal of TCharron To: jdev@jabber.org In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org > -- The Win32 project -- Why is there a need for a special win32 client? A properly written tcl/tk client will run under Unix, MacOS and Win32 without any change! (And yes, I can back this statement up) (Not that I would want to muddy the waters with such nasty arguments as favourite program language. Heaven forfend!) > I believe it was Lindsay Marshall who pointed out the following: No, it was Jeremie. I shall be unwired and silent for the next two weeks in a tent on a hill somewhere in England L. -- http://catless.ncl.ac.uk/Lindsay From owner-jdev@jabber.org Fri Jul 30 11:32:08 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA03750 for jdev-list; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 11:32:08 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from localhost (jeremie@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA03747 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 11:32:05 -0500 Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 11:32:05 -0500 (CDT) From: Jeremie X-Sender: jeremie@mondo.eppg.com To: jdev@jabber.org Subject: Re: [JDEV] Writings from the Journal of TCharron In-Reply-To: <199907301451.PAA10135@burnmoor.ncl.ac.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org > I shall be unwired and silent for the next two weeks in a tent on a > hill somewhere in England What? No wireless connection? Bah humbug! *grin* Seriously, I wish I was in a tent somewhere, wait, I take that back, the heat index is currently at 115 here(near 100% humidity, nasty) so anything outdoors is bad :) Thanks for the input on these internationalization (i18n) issues, it's good they are coming up sooner rather than later! Jer From owner-jdev@jabber.org Fri Jul 30 11:45:19 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA03933 for jdev-list; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 11:45:19 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from hermes.ezwv.com (hermes.ezwv.com [208.163.10.16]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA03927 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 11:45:16 -0500 Received: from muar241 (ip156136.dlup.hunt.ezwv.com [208.168.156.136]) by hermes.ezwv.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id LAA17292 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 11:40:02 -0400 Message-ID: <003301bedaa2$83368ce0$889ca8d0@marshall.edu> From: "Paul L. McNeely" To: References: <199907301451.PAA10135@burnmoor.ncl.ac.uk> Subject: Re: [JDEV] Writings from the Journal of TCharron Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 11:45:12 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org Its because there are some people out there that know nothing of TCL/TK etc. Their used to windows and nothing else, throwing in some kind of interpreter that they have to install just to run a program is beyond their grasp of 'user freindliness'. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Paul L. McNeely (drderail@i.am) ICQ# 1305664 Web Page: http://i.am/drderail Voicemail: 1-888-TELEBOT Extension: 37337245 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- West Virginia Christian Chat Mailing List Sign up at onelist.com or E-mail me. Marshall University Chat Mailing List http://muchat.listbot.com -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, July 30, 1999 10:54 AM Subject: Re: [JDEV] Writings from the Journal of TCharron > -- The Win32 project -- Why is there a need for a special win32 client? A properly written tcl/tk client will run under Unix, MacOS and Win32 without any change! (And yes, I can back this statement up) (Not that I would want to muddy the waters with such nasty arguments as favourite program language. Heaven forfend!) > I believe it was Lindsay Marshall who pointed out the following: No, it was Jeremie. I shall be unwired and silent for the next two weeks in a tent on a hill somewhere in England L. -- http://catless.ncl.ac.uk/Lindsay From owner-jdev@jabber.org Fri Jul 30 12:20:16 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA04205 for jdev-list; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 12:20:16 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from katie.tranzoa.com (root@sea-ts5-p12.wolfenet.com [205.163.75.12]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA04202 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 12:20:12 -0500 Received: from tara.tranzoa.com (IDENT:postfix@tara.tranzoa.com [10.1.1.66]) by katie.tranzoa.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA13507 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 09:20:07 -0700 Received: by tara.tranzoa.com (Postfix, from userid 0) id 8E31DE682B; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 09:20:05 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 09:20:04 -0700 From: Scott Robinson To: jdev@jabber.org Subject: Re: [JDEV] Writings from the Journal of TCharron Message-ID: <19990730092004.A1517@tara.tranzoa.com> References: <199907301451.PAA10135@burnmoor.ncl.ac.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary=ZGiS0Q5IWpPtfppv; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.6i In-Reply-To: <199907301451.PAA10135@burnmoor.ncl.ac.uk>; from Lindsay.Marshall@newcastle.ac.uk on Fri, Jul 30, 1999 at 03:54:15PM +0100 X-Disclaimer: The contents of this e-mail, unless otherwise stated, are the property of David Ryland Scott Robinson. Copyright (C)1999, All Rights Reservered. X-Operating-System: Linux tara.tranzoa.com 2.2.5-15 Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org --ZGiS0Q5IWpPtfppv Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Because the typical Windows user does not use Tcl/TK nor have it installed. Unless someone wants to take on the upkeep and development of a proper installer for both the Win32 Jabber client AND Tcl/TK, it's not the best idea. Either way, it comes down to being easier to being able to support the least number of files. Scott.=20 * Lindsay.Marshall@newcastle.ac.uk translated into ASCII [Fri, Jul 30, 1999= at 03:54:15PM +0100][<199907301451.PAA10135@burnmoor.ncl.ac.uk>] >=20 > > -- The Win32 project -- >=20 > > Why is there a need for a special win32 client? A properly written > tcl/tk client will run under Unix, MacOS and Win32 without any > change! (And yes, I can back this statement up) > > (Not that I would want to muddy the waters with such nasty arguments as > favourite program language. Heaven forfend!) >=20 >=20 > > I believe it was Lindsay Marshall who pointed out the following: >=20 > No, it was Jeremie. >=20 > I shall be unwired and silent for the next two weeks in a tent on a > hill somewhere in England >=20 > L. > --=20 > http://catless.ncl.ac.uk/Lindsay >=20 --ZGiS0Q5IWpPtfppv Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v0.9.8 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iEYEARECAAYFAjeh0LQACgkQ1MPeBfASdFAE3QCcCTrl7IhnvsWrwKTRiG3789I7 R0oAniGWOpV6lztobPNpAhxG6+he2Ktg =pUCg -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --ZGiS0Q5IWpPtfppv-- From owner-jdev@jabber.org Fri Jul 30 12:23:03 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA04238 for jdev-list; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 12:23:03 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from smtp2.mindspring.com (smtp2.mindspring.com [207.69.200.32]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA04232 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 12:23:00 -0500 Received: from q (pool-209-138-49-126.tmpa.grid.net [209.138.49.126]) by smtp2.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA28721 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 12:22:46 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <005201bedaa8$26805ca0$1e04a8c0@q> From: "Dave Smith" To: Subject: [JDEV] JabberLib proposal Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 11:25:22 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2013.600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org I don't know who might be interested, but here's where I'm at on my rewrite attempt of the JabberLib... My goal with this re-write attempt is to create a simple, easy to use API for reading/writing Jabber XML streams that will support multiple language bindings and platforms. I'm trying to take an approach similiar to the GTK+ toolkit. It'd be neat to see a JabberLib that could have C, C++, Perl, etc bindings. Ideally, using the JabberLib would require little or no knowledge of the XML parser interface. Furthermore, by using the pth threading library, it should be trivial to write Jabber servers that can deal with multiple connections. To accomplish this, I've isolated two core ADTs (abstract-data types): 1.) JStream (a.k.a JabberStream) 2.) JElement (a.k.a JabberElement) JStream is an ADT wrapped around a file descriptor that can read/write any file of XML data and parse/de-parse the XML into a logical, hierarchial representation in memory (JElement). It supports the following operations: 1.) jstream_read: reads from the associated file descriptor and only returns when a complete jelement has been built 2.) jstream_write: write to the associated file descriptor a jelment structure. Handle decomposition of the jelement into a XML stream Both the read and write operations are blocking (using pth). This allows one to create a multi-client capable server by simply assigning each client connection a jstream in a pth thread. No more confusing select statements, and it's pretty cross-platform since it's based on pth... :) JElement is an ADT which represents a parsed Jabber XML stream. It's roughly equivalent to w3c's spec for the XML DOM (with a few minor alterations). In a sense, this ADT is a conglomeration of the xpt,jpair, and xptpool structures currently in the lib directory. The obvious question, of course, is why not use the existing (xpt, jpair, etc) structures? To begin with, there is a fair amount of overlap between the different structures (in terms of organization). Attributes can have siblings in the same way that tags can. An attribute name/value pair is nearly equivalent to a tag's name/CDATA pair. Furthermore, I don't *believe* (Jer, please correct me if I'm wrong) that the xpt structure properly handles multiple CDATA sections within a tag (see the example at the end of this email). Finally, by specifying a dedicated ADT (namely, JStream) that handles the generation of a DOM representation of Jabber XML data, there is no reason to have two data structures (xpt and xptpool) to individually represent a document and the elements within a document -- especially when the document and the elements which compose it share a nearly identical internal structure. I'll probably need to clarify these reasons at a later point (especially as my brain is nearing a fried point for this week). :) The bottom line is that I believe that one, consistent data structure is much simpler to deal with than 3 data structures. :) To those who feel inclined to disagree I respectfully point out that this is patterned after the w3c DOM design, so if it's good enough for them it's good enough for me. :) More later. D. -------------CDATA parsing example------------- Consider the following: Hello world in a new way! This should parse out to: TAG(name=message, children = [ CDATA(value="Hello world in a"), TAG(name=bold ...), CDATA(value="way!") ] ) *not*: TAG(name=message, children = [ CDATA(value="Hello world in a way!") TAG(name=bold...) ] ) From owner-jdev@jabber.org Fri Jul 30 13:10:51 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA04612 for jdev-list; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 13:10:51 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from exchange.starbasecorp.com (exchange.starbasecorp.com [12.13.2.6]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA04609 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 13:10:46 -0500 Received: from geocities.com (adsl-216-103-55-119.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [216.103.55.119]) by exchange.starbasecorp.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2448.0) id P708H95H; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 10:11:00 -0700 Message-ID: <37A1DCF3.5301F813@geocities.com> Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 10:12:19 -0700 From: "Jon A. Cruz" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.5-15 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: jdev@jabber.org Subject: Re: [JDEV] charsets (was: Protocol extension?) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org "Thomas D. Charron" wrote: > Err, I think I missed a point or two here.. Language = profile, but charset = protocol/client/etc. Let's not get confused here.. Once you can support the charset, the 'puters could care less what language your speaking.. > Not quite. If you are supporting a charset, it could still be interpreted several different ways. One example off the top of my head is Japanese & chinese. In many places they both use the same characters, but draw them slightly differently. Often they get quite irratated if their Japanese word shows up in a Chinese font and vice versa. Japanese users tend to prefer Japanese fonts for their stuff, Chinese users tend to prefer Chinese fonts for theirs, and they both hate the 'Unified' fonts. Doing that to them would be similar to running all British users's messages through a checker that converted "colour' to 'color', 'lift' to 'elevator', etc. Culturally insensitive. -- "My new computer's got the clocks, it rocks But it was obsolete before I opened the box" - W.A.Y. From owner-jdev@jabber.org Fri Jul 30 15:00:10 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA05256 for jdev-list; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 15:00:10 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from calloway.mit.edu (CALLOWAY.MIT.EDU [18.55.1.20]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA05253 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 15:00:07 -0500 Received: (from belg4mit@localhost) by calloway.mit.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA05186; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 15:00:11 -0400 Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 15:00:11 -0400 From: Jerrad Pierce Message-Id: <199907301900.PAA05186@calloway.mit.edu> To: jdev@jabber.org Subject: [JDEV] encoding Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org In reply to your message from the not too distant future: next Friday AD Reply-to: belg4mit@mit.edu Return-receipt-to: belg4mit@mit.edu Organization: a) Discordia b) none c) what's that? Content-Typo: gibberish, charset=ascii-art Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 15:00:09 EDT From: belg4mit >What I'm really wondering here is, this is just character encodings, >correct? I mean, all the same characters are still there in ANY >encoding(unless it's a severly restricted one), they are just encoded >differently. If it's all UTF-8 you can still do all of the korean, >japanese, english, etc, characters just fine, they are just encoded in >UTF-8. It's just a language and font display issue at that point. So >what is the problem with using the XML-forced UTF-8 encoding? This is more or less how I see it. I think we (should) all agree by nomw that as long as the XML parser knows it's getting 8-bit (eg; UTF) it comes down to your case. I see the discussion now as how to tell the client what it needs to do to display the data, hence my directive view for encoding. -- Please take the time to answer the simple survey at: http://www.pthbb.org/cgi.bin/survey/ * __ * . \ | / . . . . . ((_ _____ . . . -- / \ -- . . . + . . _/\ oooooooooo. | * . . . * / ;M\_ . .oooooooooooo.oo. . . . . /\ . / :IMM\ ..oooooooooooo..oo. Jerrad Pierce /\ / \ / ;IIWMM ..oooooooooo....... 209 North Street + / \ / \ . / ;IIIIWM ...ooooooooo....... Randolph, MA 02368 / \ \ ___/ :;IIIIIWM ....ooo....o....... / \ \ / :: ;;IIIMI .....ooo......... http://www.pthbb.org / \ \ : :::;IIIM ..ooooooo.... __________________________ || || ::.....:::::: MOTD on Sweetmorn, the 65th of Confusion, in the YOLD 3165: Born Free. . . . .Taxed to Death From owner-jdev@jabber.org Fri Jul 30 15:43:41 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA05585 for jdev-list; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 15:43:41 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from smtp.itis.com (smtp.itis.com [209.83.0.138]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA05582 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 15:43:34 -0500 Received: from gemini (a1-14.dodgeville.chorus.net [208.135.143.14]) by smtp.itis.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Chorus Networks) with ESMTP id OAA04289 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 14:43:30 -0500 (CDT) Received: from 192.168.0.1 by oakwind ([192.168.0.1] running VPOP3 - Unregistered) with SMTP for ; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 14:43:27 -0500 From: "Vivre Draco" Organization: Consortium of High Deities To: jdev@jabber.org Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 14:43:27 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: [JDEV] Writings from the Journal of TCharron In-reply-to: <003301bedaa2$83368ce0$889ca8d0@marshall.edu> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.11) Message-Id: X-Server: VPOP3 V1.3.0b Unregistered Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org On 30 Jul 99,, Paul L. McNeely sounded off on Re: [JDEV] Writings from the Journa: > Its because there are some people out there that know nothing of > TCL/TK etc. Their used to windows and nothing else, throwing in > some kind of interpreter that they have to install just to run a > program is beyond their grasp of 'user freindliness'. I agree. I have a good understanding of computers, and actually have the necessary TCL/TK interpreters on my machine already, but I still consider it a pain and generally un-user-friendly for most ppl to have to download interpreters and crap. Plus, here under Windows I have customized colors. I hate it when programs use that ugly, boring grey, tho in the case of interpreted scripting thingies they at least have an excuse... -- "In America, sex is an obsession; in other parts of the world it's a fact." --Marlene Dietrich Copyright 1999 Vivre Draco (cfc@paganpaths.org) excelsior ad infinitum -- http://www.paganpaths.org/~cfc/ From owner-jdev@jabber.org Fri Jul 30 15:46:52 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA05617 for jdev-list; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 15:46:52 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from zeus.kia.net ([205.252.89.69]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA05614 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 15:46:49 -0500 Received: from scylla (client-151-200-118-51.bellatlantic.net [151.200.118.51]) by zeus.kia.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) with SMTP id PAA14674 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 15:53:59 -0400 (EDT) From: "Patrick McCuller" To: Subject: RE: [JDEV] existing protocol questions Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 15:44:50 -0400 Message-ID: <005001bedac3$fcd8d820$3376c897@scylla> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 In-Reply-To: Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org Jer, thanks for answering questions 1-4 so quickly :) About message : why not structure extensions internally as an XML document in a CDATA field? My reasoning is this: if the extended data is structured, then clients will be less likely to trample on each other. For instance: Client A likes to send receipts, so it stuffs a 'message ID' which is essentially a hash of the last message received into the of the first response it sends to Client B. Client B, however, expects or or goodness knows what. As a result, the secure hash is totally inappropriate and neither side really knows why. This leads into feature negotiation, which you mentioned previously, but perhaps it is time to get back to that discussion. Patrick > > > 4. > > How does the message extension work? What is its intended usage? > > Basically, it's so that two clients can communicate programatically > easily. The server doesn't touch the data in the fields, and > the user shouldn't see it directly(unless the client *wants* them to). > As Tom mentioned, it's a way clients could add background information such > as game data, etc... it's there for "future use" and extensability. > > Feel free to ask away if you have any more questions! I know the docs at > jabber.org are a bit sparse, but as soon as I get things moved this > weekend I'll be updating and adding lots more! > > Jer > > From owner-jdev@jabber.org Fri Jul 30 16:18:39 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA05919 for jdev-list; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 16:18:39 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from localhost (jeremie@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA05916 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 16:18:37 -0500 Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 16:18:37 -0500 (CDT) From: Jeremie X-Sender: jeremie@mondo.eppg.com To: jdev@jabber.org Subject: RE: [JDEV] existing protocol questions In-Reply-To: <005001bedac3$fcd8d820$3376c897@scylla> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org > Jer, thanks for answering questions 1-4 so quickly :) No prob, sometimes it takes me a week, sometimes only a few minutes, *g*. > About message : why not structure extensions internally as an > XML document in a CDATA field? My reasoning is this: if the extended data is > structured, then clients will be less likely to trample on each other. For > instance: > > Client A likes to send receipts, so it stuffs a 'message ID' which is > essentially a hash of the last message received into the of the first > response it sends to Client B. Client B, however, expects or > or goodness knows what. As a result, the secure hash is > totally inappropriate and neither side really knows why. Actually, I don't think I really documented it anywhere, but my intention for the field was to have an XML tree stuck within it, so each client would have their own tag space to do whatever they wanted, for example: 213476345 Each client would be restricted to use their own tag names containing their own data. > This leads into feature negotiation, which you mentioned previously, but > perhaps it is time to get back to that discussion. Some feature negotiation will be part of the info/query proposal, I'll post more detail next week :) Jer From owner-jdev@jabber.org Sat Jul 31 14:50:36 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA11942 for jdev-list; Sat, 31 Jul 1999 14:50:36 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from mc-qout4.whowhere.com (mc-qout4.whowhere.com [209.185.123.18]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA11939 for ; Sat, 31 Jul 1999 14:50:33 -0500 Received: from Unknown/Local ([?.?.?.?]) by my-deja.com; Sat Jul 31 11:49:53 1999 To: jdev@jabber.org Date: Sat, 31 Jul 1999 11:49:53 -0700 From: "Thomas D. Charron" Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sent-Mail: off X-Mailer: MailCity Service Subject: Re: [JDEV] Writings from the Journal of TCharron X-Sender-Ip: 205.161.31.49 Organization: My Deja Email (http://www.my-deja.com:80) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org >I would focus on the "must accept." I'm fine with accepting UTF-8 and >UTF-16, however (and this is the reason they included a standard for passing >encoding) we should also be able to handle internationalization. As the >example was given, what would the Korean Jabber user think? Answer: they >wouldn't use Jabber... The problem I can as far as I can see it is, unless we convert from charset to charset, we can't really provide for inter-charset communications.. Switching charsets midstream = bad. Throwing off a new expat object for each packet, IMHO, also = bad.. But I'm also not experienced at ALL in internationalization.. Heck, when I need to ./configure I always ./configure --disable-nls.. ;-P --- Thomas Charron > >[snap] >> I know there's more that I'm forgetting.. > >Everyone does! ;) > >> --- >> Thomas Charron >> >> >> --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- >> Share what you know. Learn what you don't. > --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- Share what you know. Learn what you don't. From owner-jdev@jabber.org Sat Jul 31 14:56:11 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA11994 for jdev-list; Sat, 31 Jul 1999 14:56:11 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from mc-qout4.whowhere.com (mc-qout4.whowhere.com [209.185.123.18]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA11989 for ; Sat, 31 Jul 1999 14:56:08 -0500 Received: from Unknown/Local ([?.?.?.?]) by my-deja.com; Sat Jul 31 11:55:26 1999 To: jdev@jabber.org Date: Sat, 31 Jul 1999 11:55:26 -0700 From: "Thomas D. Charron" Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sent-Mail: off X-Mailer: MailCity Service Subject: Re: [JDEV] existing protocol questions X-Sender-Ip: 205.161.31.49 Organization: My Deja Email (http://www.my-deja.com:80) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org Using CDATA within a message could also work, becouse as you stated, CDATA would not be touched. This method could be used if you where to be transfering completely nonXML data, but the ext tags are specifically build to extend on the XML tag structure. Basically, it's a nice place we decided to say 'Go house here'.. Also, IMHO, makes it easier to manage the protocol, knowing that no one should be screwing with what's in the standardized tags.. --- Thomas Charron On Fri, 30 Jul 1999 15:11:22 Lindsay.Marshall wrote: >>>4. >>> How does the message extension work? What is its intended usage? >> >> You mean the ? Can be used for anything one deems fit. I could actually send >> you a raw text file, contained within the ext tags.. The server/transports won't touch it, and >> will just pass it along. It's a way to piggyback any data someone may want to pass along with a >> jabber packet without having to make ANYTHING aware of it.. Heck, eventually someone will probrably >> make a checkers game by passing move data between clients via the ext tag.. > >Um, surely the server transports wont touch *any* CDATA anywhere! At >least I hope they won't! Except of course where they have to handle >escaped character sequences which always get in the way. So why is ext >different from (say) ??? > >L. >-- >http://catless.ncl.ac.uk/Lindsay > > --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- Share what you know. Learn what you don't. From owner-jdev@jabber.org Sat Jul 31 15:01:18 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA12127 for jdev-list; Sat, 31 Jul 1999 15:01:18 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from mc-qout4.whowhere.com (mc-qout4.whowhere.com [209.185.123.18]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA12124 for ; Sat, 31 Jul 1999 15:01:16 -0500 Received: from Unknown/Local ([?.?.?.?]) by my-deja.com; Sat Jul 31 12:00:40 1999 To: jdev@jabber.org Date: Sat, 31 Jul 1999 12:00:40 -0700 From: "Thomas D. Charron" Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sent-Mail: off X-Mailer: MailCity Service Subject: Re: [JDEV] Writings from the Journal of TCharron X-Sender-Ip: 205.161.31.49 Organization: My Deja Email (http://www.my-deja.com:80) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org Thanks for answering this one for me.. Personally, I actively use zabber to test the Win32 code between my Linux and Windows box. Hell, I actually personally PREFER to use a script based client for anything, merely becouse I tend to open up the code and make a change every once and a while, but.. We have the masses.. The George Jetsons that click on the exe for install, click every button marked 'Yes' or 'Ok', and well, that's the mass market. By the same token, many people who prefer script based languages also give the argument.. 'But we have talk!!'.. ;-P --- Thomas Charron On Fri, 30 Jul 1999 11:45:12 Paul L. McNeely wrote: >Its because there are some people out there that know nothing of TCL/TK etc. >Their used to windows and nothing else, throwing in some kind of interpreter >that they have to install just to run a program is beyond their grasp of >'user freindliness'. >-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- >Paul L. McNeely (drderail@i.am) ICQ# 1305664 >Web Page: http://i.am/drderail >Voicemail: 1-888-TELEBOT Extension: 37337245 >-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > West Virginia Christian Chat Mailing List > Sign up at onelist.com or E-mail me. > Marshall University Chat Mailing List > http://muchat.listbot.com >-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > >----- Original Message ----- >From: >To: >Sent: Friday, July 30, 1999 10:54 AM >Subject: Re: [JDEV] Writings from the Journal of TCharron > > > >> -- The Win32 project -- > > >Why is there a need for a special win32 client? A properly written >tcl/tk client will run under Unix, MacOS and Win32 without any >change! (And yes, I can back this statement up) > >(Not that I would want to muddy the waters with such nasty arguments as >favourite program language. Heaven forfend!) > > >> I believe it was Lindsay Marshall who pointed out the following: > >No, it was Jeremie. > >I shall be unwired and silent for the next two weeks in a tent on a >hill somewhere in England > >L. >-- >http://catless.ncl.ac.uk/Lindsay > > > --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- Share what you know. Learn what you don't. From owner-jdev@jabber.org Sat Jul 31 15:05:50 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA12240 for jdev-list; Sat, 31 Jul 1999 15:05:50 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from mc-qout4.whowhere.com (mc-qout4.whowhere.com [209.185.123.18]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA12237 for ; Sat, 31 Jul 1999 15:05:48 -0500 Received: from Unknown/Local ([?.?.?.?]) by my-deja.com; Sat Jul 31 12:05:12 1999 To: jdev@jabber.org Date: Sat, 31 Jul 1999 12:05:12 -0700 From: "Thomas D. Charron" Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sent-Mail: off X-Mailer: MailCity Service Subject: Re: [JDEV] Writings from the Journal of TCharron X-Sender-Ip: 205.161.31.49 Organization: My Deja Email (http://www.my-deja.com:80) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org See previouse message.. You are correct, as would a perl, java, awk, (please continue to insert ANY scripting language that allows you to open a file). But this is the masses client. Heck, the script based clients will implement the neato-new features faster, simply becouse of the development technique used.. (Aka.. 'Good Idea', 5 minutes later 'Like this?') ;-P --- Thomas Charron On Fri, 30 Jul 1999 15:54:15 Lindsay.Marshall wrote: > >> -- The Win32 project -- > > >Why is there a need for a special win32 client? A properly written >tcl/tk client will run under Unix, MacOS and Win32 without any >change! (And yes, I can back this statement up) > >(Not that I would want to muddy the waters with such nasty arguments as >favourite program language. Heaven forfend!) > > >> I believe it was Lindsay Marshall who pointed out the following: > >No, it was Jeremie. > >I shall be unwired and silent for the next two weeks in a tent on a >hill somewhere in England > >L. >-- >http://catless.ncl.ac.uk/Lindsay > > --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- Share what you know. Learn what you don't. From owner-jdev@jabber.org Sat Jul 31 16:06:46 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA12632 for jdev-list; Sat, 31 Jul 1999 16:06:46 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from zeus.kia.net ([205.252.89.69]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA12629 for ; Sat, 31 Jul 1999 16:06:43 -0500 Received: from scylla (client-151-200-117-42.bellatlantic.net [151.200.117.42]) by zeus.kia.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) with SMTP id QAA17216 for ; Sat, 31 Jul 1999 16:13:56 -0400 (EDT) From: "Patrick McCuller" To: Subject: RE: [JDEV] Writings from the Journal of TCharron Date: Sat, 31 Jul 1999 16:04:50 -0400 Message-ID: <002f01bedb8f$f21018a0$2a75c897@scylla> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 In-Reply-To: Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-jdev@jabber.org [mailto:owner-jdev@jabber.org]On Behalf Of > Thomas D. Charron > Sent: Saturday, July 31, 1999 3:05 PM > To: jdev@jabber.org > Subject: Re: [JDEV] Writings from the Journal of TCharron > > > See previouse message.. You are correct, as would a perl, > java, awk, (please continue to insert ANY scripting language that > allows you to open a file). But this is the masses client. You say that, wait til you see my Java client. BTW, for anyone interested: JabberBeans by Monday or bust. Patrick From owner-jdev@jabber.org Sat Jul 31 18:13:45 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA13283 for jdev-list; Sat, 31 Jul 1999 18:13:45 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mondo.eppg.com: majordomo set sender to owner-jdev@jabber.org using -f Received: from infinity.rhythm.cx (infinity.rhythm.cx [198.88.24.11]) by mondo.eppg.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA13280 for ; Sat, 31 Jul 1999 18:13:43 -0500 Received: (from jms@localhost) by infinity.rhythm.cx (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA14775 for jdev@jabber.org; Sat, 31 Jul 1999 18:20:33 -0400 From: Steve Message-Id: <199907312220.SAA14775@infinity.rhythm.cx> Subject: [JDEV] New developer, Unix clients, Todos... To: jdev@jabber.org Date: Sat, 31 Jul 1999 18:20:33 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text Sender: owner-jdev@jabber.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jdev@jabber.org Hi everyone. I've been following Jabber a little recently with great interest. I've been wanting to get involved in an open source, open protocol instant messaging system for a long time now. About a year and a half ago to two years ago I put a lot of thought into writing one myself, and designed a simple protocol and actually began coding a client and server for the messaging system. I started writing it because I wanted a good way to communicate with my friends via the internet. At the time there weren't many AIM or ICQ clients that ran well under Linux, so I set off to write my own. I eventually scrapped the whole thing. In time new projects were developed, and I discovered others I had not previously known about. I also heard about IMPP, Jabber, TiK and miscelaneous 3rd party ICQ clients. I scrapped the project since I didn't want to create yet-another-IM-system which would eventually be rendered obsolete by IMPP. At anyrate, I've become interested in Jabber to the point where I thought I might want to join in and maybe code something to aid in development. I've been looking around in the list archives and reading documentation on the jabber architecture. I heard something of a command line unix client system for jabber written in perl, there was one thread about it around the middle of this month on here, but no major talk about it, or anything in the lastest distribution (or maybe I just couldn't find it, sorry). I was thinking about writing something that would look exactly like the write and talk utilities commonly found in unix systems, but would use jabber. Is anyone working on something this right now? I have plenty experience coding in C under unix as well a little experience coding in GTK/Glib and everything that entails, but I want to start learning perl this summer. I also want to help Jabber out, I think its an important project that a lot of people could use. We definitely need an open messaging system. So I thought maybe I'd use some of my free time and my desire to learn and code something in perl by helping out this project a little. If anyone out there has been working on a jabberized talk and write (what I'm interested in doing), please let me know. Thanks -Steve